[Royal] Announcing the Royal Commission on Immigration

[M:sr Pôl dal Nordselvă, D.Div, M.Ed]

As a recent outsider the political infighting is a big turn off. In this day of divided politics, especially in the US, a more united political system would be an enticing draw. Seeing Talossan's working together instead of dividing into petty camps would be a huge draw for those escaping their current environment.

Calling each other names, carefully couched accusations, backhanded compliments, etc. only serve to make Talossa less appealing.

Can somebody please answer this question. Why is immigration the largest concern of some parties? How many actual people immigrate monthly? I see numbers thrown around that in reality mean nothing. How many recent immigrants actually stayed around and got involved? Quite frankly the things mentioned as attractions aren't. All of those things can be done absent of Talossa. There needs to be something beyond special, a master reason to join. I'll state again that addressing the motivation should be more important than nitpicking the numbers.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

But it still boils back to the same point, of those things you mentioned not being visible, even to those who have been around for years, so how would a newcomer easily find out?

Sure, we should probably do a better job of promoting the things that are going on.  I think that would be great!  Please do so!

Clearly, I don't think "everything is great."  I have been loudly agitating to point out that the immigration rate has plummeted by half.  That is not great.  I have made a lot of suggestions about how the Government could do better, but one of the most fundamental things I've been urging is that we should be trying lots of things, loudly and with emphasis, since this is a crisis.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Why is immigration the largest concern of some parties?

It's not the Progressive Alliance's only concern, but it's a pretty big one.  After all, currently some folks are arguing we should be deleting the entire Senats, which has been around for more than three decades, since there's not enough people just to fill the chairs.  We're losing more people each year than immigrate, over this past year.

How many actual people immigrate monthly? I see numbers thrown around that in reality mean nothing.

The government publishes official data on immigration.  They're real numbers.  Are you claiming that actually there's no problem and recent immigrants are much more active and everything is great?

Quote frankly the things mentioned as attractions aren't. All of those things can be done absent of Talossa. There needs to be something beyond special, a master reason to join. I'll state again that addressing the motivation should be more important than nitpicking the numbers.

I'm not "nitpicking."  It's a huge, impossible-to-ignore trend.  It's a 50% drop.

So there's nothing you really like about Talossa right now?  Nothing you enjoy doing?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0   Or a new thread somewhere else, if someone wants to challenge the current prevailing narrative.

Otherwise, can we just let this thread alone and agree that we're going to work together to help solve the problem?

[M:sr Pôl dal Nordselvă, D.Div, M.Ed]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.  If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0

Isn't this the purpose of this debate and commission? It seems to me the only person "circling" anything is you as you circle the drain of irrelevance. The point of this commission isnt to point fingers and blame others for perceived error. Rather it is to find a path forward that encourages immigration. I'd suggest the purpose is to encourage longevity. Again I say why have peiple come here to leave or just disappear?

As much as I opposed the AI conversation that would have at least been an attraction for many people. The curiosity factor alone could have been huge. This issue requires stepping outside our tired and overused talking points and thinking outside the box.

Engaging more with other micronations; virtual sporting events; public engagement with world governments; bringing attention to worldwide concerns. Many or all of these could be draws. There are things that can be done differently that don't require political tension.

We can do better. We SHOULD do better. Let's get the message out that we ARE better.

[King Txec]

Well I take a break for a few hours and then see this thread has exploded. Let's keep it on point - as it is about the Royal Commission. Thanks.

-Txec R

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

If you want to have this debate, I'd direct you here: https://wittenberg.talossa.com/index.php?topic=4188.0  Or a new thread somewhere else, if someone wants to challenge the current prevailing narrative.

Otherwise, can we just let this thread alone and agree that we're going to work together to help solve the problem?

AD with all due respect, this IS the place to have this discussion, at least with what myself and Pol have been arguing for, which is that the points we have made, be brought up for serious discussion in the royal commission, Also, I think you'll find that I have not defended the government, and have openly admitted that this is an issue that has been several successive governments, on both sides. But you must have missed those in your haste to respond quickly. As I have not in any way been defending the government, but saying that we need the scope of the commission to talk about our appeal to non talossans who might stumble across us. And how to make this look like a place they might want to join. It's all well and good in reforming the immigration system, if nothing else changes, and the numbers remain low (as to be frank, they have been low for years under our governments of others) then we would be back at square one.

I believe that this being talked about by the commission should be a part of its agenda to look at solution in tandem with other issues the commission might find to rectify.

[Iason Taiwos]

If I'm not allowed to post here, not being a member of this committee, then please delete this. (But give me a break. I work in a miserable factory, it was 107 degrees Fahrenheit in there today, my brains are a little fried.)
Talossa is great. I've been a citizen since 2011. Somehow, you all have put up with me even when I've occasionally been a complete jackass. I am pleased to be a part of Talossa, and am proud if I've managed to make any single, meager contribution to it. (yeah, that Cjovani crap.) Talossa has held my interest since 2011. I haven't even held a job at the same place for that long. I've come to believe that this is a community of decent, creative, and genuinely cool people, and I don't think I'd ever renounce my citizenship. The only way I leave Talossa is in a casket.
That being said, the problem is immigration. I've tried to get my own family members to join, without success. The grandkids walk into my house, see my Talossan flag hanging on the wall, and my Guizua prominently displayed, it's just "That's that fake country Poppy is an Admiral in." Efforts to recruit some of the nerds that frequent Vitx's game store have also met with failure.
Then I get online and see shit like Slowjamistan. Maybe that guy has a lot of money. He bought a parcel of land in the desert. You can go there. He has merch you can buy. You can drive to wherever his land is, he has signs up, maybe you can meet him and other Slowjamistanians. Sealand is harder to actually visit, but you shell out some Louis, you can become royalty. Novelty gift, be a Duke or whatever. Get a fancy certificate.
I'm not suggesting Talossa become like that. "Become a Duke in Talossa for $39.95! Get a certificate signed by the King!" But, maybe that kind of marketing may help. People like to get stuff. Citizenship in Talossa may be free, but why can't we charge money for citizenship certificates and ID cards? And flags? The official Talossan website should have a store. Sure, you'll get a bunch of people who join just for the novelty. "I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life and didn't know I was a in an independent nation! I just joined and ordered an ID card!" Out of all the people who do that as a novelty, maybe we'll get some more people who become intrigued by what Talossa is all about, and who will actively take it seriously. If not, we've still managed to get money from them.
As far as I'm concerned, our language is our greatest asset. We should promote the shit out of that. We need more original Talossan language works, or translations, anything. I'm half tempted to try and contact Iusti Canun in prison, who knows? The dude has nothing but spare time, by now he may have translated the entire Lord of the Rings into Talossan.
I'm done now. Work was pretty bad today. I believe I may have heat exhaustion.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Isn't this the purpose of this debate and commission? It seems to me the only person "circling" anything is you as you circle the drain of irrelevance. The point of this commission isnt to point fingers and blame others for perceived error. Rather it is to find a path forward that encourages immigration. I'd suggest the purpose is to encourage longevity. Again I say why have peiple come here to leave or just disappear?

As much as I opposed the AI conversation that would have at least been an attraction for many people. The curiosity factor alone could have been huge. This issue requires stepping outside our tired and overused talking points and thinking outside the box.

Engaging more with other micronations; virtual sporting events; public engagement with world governments; bringing attention to worldwide concerns. Many or all of these could be draws. There are things that can be done differently that don't require political tension.

We can do better. We SHOULD do better. Let's get the message out that we ARE better.

I am going to decline to respond to any of this, except to say that I think this thread would best be served by keeping it focused on the bipartisan royal commission which was created to recommend specific solutions to the people and the Ziu, not to cast blame.  Please, if you wish to continue debating, please start a new thread or continue at the one I linked.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

If I'm not allowed to post here, not being a member of this committee, then please delete this. (But give me a break. I work in a miserable factory, it was 107 degrees Fahrenheit in there today, my brains are a little fried.)
Talossa is great. I've been a citizen since 2011. Somehow, you all have put up with me even when I've occasionally been a complete jackass. I am pleased to be a part of Talossa, and am proud if I've managed to make any single, meager contribution to it. (yeah, that Cjovani crap.) Talossa has held my interest since 2011. I haven't even held a job at the same place for that long. I've come to believe that this is a community of decent, creative, and genuinely cool people, and I don't think I'd ever renounce my citizenship. The only way I leave Talossa is in a casket.
That being said, the problem is immigration. I've tried to get my own family members to join, without success. The grandkids walk into my house, see my Talossan flag hanging on the wall, and my Guizua prominently displayed, it's just "That's that fake country Poppy is an Admiral in." Efforts to recruit some of the nerds that frequent Vitx's game store have also met with failure.
Then I get online and see shit like Slowjamistan. Maybe that guy has a lot of money. He bought a parcel of land in the desert. You can go there. He has merch you can buy. You can drive to wherever his land is, he has signs up, maybe you can meet him and other Slowjamistanians. Sealand is harder to actually visit, but you shell out some Louis, you can become royalty. Novelty gift, be a Duke or whatever. Get a fancy certificate.
I'm not suggesting Talossa become like that. "Become a Duke in Talossa for $39.95! Get a certificate signed by the King!" But, maybe that kind of marketing may help. People like to get stuff. Citizenship in Talossa may be free, but why can't we charge money for citizenship certificates and ID cards? And flags? The official Talossan website should have a store. Sure, you'll get a bunch of people who join just for the novelty. "I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life and didn't know I was a in an independent nation! I just joined and ordered an ID card!" Out of all the people who do that as a novelty, maybe we'll get some more people who become intrigued by what Talossa is all about, and who will actively take it seriously. If not, we've still managed to get money from them.
As far as I'm concerned, our language is our greatest asset. We should promote the shit out of that. We need more original Talossan language works, or translations, anything. I'm half tempted to try and contact Iusti Canun in prison, who knows? The dude has nothing but spare time, by now he may have translated the entire Lord of the Rings into Talossan.
I'm done now. Work was pretty bad today. I believe I may have heat exhaustion.

These are good ideas!  Thank you.

[M:sr Pôl dal Nordselvă, D.Div, M.Ed]

I am going to decline to respond to any of this, except to say that I think this thread would best be served by keeping it focused on the bipartisan royal commission which was created to recommend specific solutions to the people and the Ziu, not to cast blame.  Please, if you wish to continue debating, please start a new thread or continue at the one I linked.

I will take that as your conceding the point of discussion. My only accusation is that somebody always tries to stifle the debate rather than actually respond in a meaningful and constructive way. This commission on immigration needs to address more than numbers but motivation. I've fully stated my position and don't need to rehash.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

The only reason why I joined Talossa in the first place was its language. Everyone can declare their bedroom to be an independent kingdom and hang flags and what not, but we're the only ones to have our own national language with almost 45 years of history behind it. However, I'm afraid this is only really a pull factor for language nerds (such as myself), and even then finding pertinent information on the language is difficult. I remember having to correct other language nerds on Reddit when they promoted Talossan has having 12 noun cases (which it might've had in the late 80s but where do you even get that info from?).

Personally, the problem might be one of low general appeal combined with difficulty to find info. A lot of info on Talossa is decades if not more out of date, to the point where some in the micronational community still believed (until *I* corrected them) that Talossa was split into a Kingdom and Republic. I don't know how this keeps happening.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I would like to reiterate that I think this debate isn't helpful.  I know that Dama Miestra, Pol, and Antaglha want to circle the wagons and defend the Government, but this is a thread about a bipartisan royal commission.

I wasn't actually going to intervene myself, since personalised attacks on me inevitably derail every discussion, but I am very happy to see my Cabinet ministers do so. The King is to be commended that his commission has sparked contributions from those who have previously felt shy about giving their viewpoints. It is working as intended. More formal discussions can go on within the Commission, in parallel.

I fear that the Conservative Alliance entered this debate under the delusion that they were going to criticise everyone else, and nobody was going to criticise them.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

A lot of info on Talossa is decades if not more out of date, to the point where some in the micronational community still believed (until *I* corrected them) that Talossa was split into a Kingdom and Republic. I don't know how this keeps happening.

That's a consequence of decades of self-imposed isolation, which the King and the Foreign Ministry is doing its best to roll back.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

The official Talossan website should have a store.

Excellent point, the Government is *trying* to get Talossaware back underway. That's something for @Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be and his deputy minister @Barclamïu da Miéletz to follow up.

A lot of this discussion is sadly irrelevant to the point that we all know cool miéida that could be happening, but it's not happening because apart from a tiny, tiny minority, no-one wants to do any hutschind work around here. We have elections where the opposition yells "why isn't the government doing cool stuff?", the government says "we can't find anyone with the time and energy', they lose the election, then the new government doesn't have anyone with the time or energy either. Plenty of time and energy for fighting elections though, lol.

*cough* anyway...

We need more original Talossan language works, or translations, anything.

Have you given AD's Teach Yourself Talossan lessons a go? Be the change you want to see in the world

[Mic’haglh Autófil, O.Be]

Can somebody please answer this question. Why is immigration the largest concern of some parties?

Despite what some may argue, it is in fact a concern of all parties. Unlike some micronations, Talossa prunes its citizen rolls of citizens who have not voted or responded to a national census in the last two years. Since activity is what keeps micronations going, and citizens are needed for activity, immigration is needed to keep things fresh and replace those who allow their citizenship to lapse (or renounce if they get harassed out, like ESB or Braneu the first time).

How many actual people immigrate monthly? I see numbers thrown around that in reality mean nothing.

According to Infoteca (effectively a tracking spreadsheet maintained by the Government), the average month sees anywhere from 0-2 naturalizations.

How many recent immigrants actually stayed around and got involved?

That's the big question. Most immigrants in recent years (at least since I've immigrated, which was in 2022) seem to stay quieter. You get a few who jump right in, but we've also seen multiple citizens from the "uptick" during the 58th Cosa already lapse out with like five more on course to do so if they don't vote in the next election.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

we've also seen multiple citizens from the "uptick" during the 58th Cosa already lapse out

The thing about the "uptick" during the 58th Cosa was that most of those people joined the Government party straight out of the immigration queue, something which attracted comment at the time.

King Robert I always used to say that joining his Progressive Conservative Party proved that new citizens were ready to participate fully in mainstream Talossan society. Obviously that's authoritarian partisan nonsense, but maybe the current Government parties are just not enthusiastic enough about getting new citizens signed up to vote for us.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I will take that as your conceding the point of discussion. My only accusation is that somebody always tries to stifle the debate rather than actually respond in a meaningful and constructive way.

I am not "conceding" when I suggest that a heated partisan debate about blame will undermine the bipartisan commission to suggest solutions.

I am serious about actually addressing this issue.  There is a time and place for campaigning, and I don't think the people will buy the Government's spin on this issue.  But with respect to this effort, I am going to try to engage in the spirit which I think is going to actually help matters.

[M:sr Pôl dal Nordselvă, D.Div, M.Ed]

Now this is actual discussion of merit and looking at solutions rather than assign blame. There is enough blame to go around and it isnt helpful or even necessary to dwell upon past mistakes. Rather those errors should be used to point toward a solution. Taking a holistic view is required and something those here are desirous of.

I love Talossa and what it stands for. It allows me the freedom to express myself and be my true self without consequence or undesired effects elsewhere. I am in reality a person of deep conviction and thought and not impulsive in action. Making change is difficult and requires strength of character that is sadly lacking in many people of this age. Critical thinking is no longer a desired skill but an overlooked and dated concept. Most would rather move with the flow, staying inside their own echo chambers. We can be, and should be, different.

Nobody here is a fool. The rhetoric can get quite heated but at the end of the day we all want the same thing. We all want to see Talossa thrive! We all want to see Talossa shine! We are Talossan's!

We are Talossan's!

I make a call to all of us to step out of our typical corners, join hands, put aside needless animosity, and be the ideal we want. To be the CHANGE we want. If I offended anybody let me be the first to apologize. @Baron Alexandreu Davinescu, @Breneir Tzaracomprada, @Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC, @King Txec.  I want to link arms with all of you and make this Talossan ideal a Talossan reality!

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Now this is actual discussion of merit and looking at solutions rather than assign blame. There is enough blame to go around and it isnt helpful or even necessary to dwell upon past mistakes. Rather those errors should be used to point toward a solution. Taking a holistic view is required and something those here are desirous of.

I love Talossa and what it stands for. It allows me the freedom to express myself and be my true self without consequence or undesired effects elsewhere. I am in reality a person of deep conviction and thought and not impulsive in action. Making change is difficult and requires strength of character that is sadly lacking in many people of this age. Critical thinking is no longer a desired skill but an overlooked and dated concept. Most would rather move with the flow, staying inside their own echo chambers. We can be, and should be, different.

Nobody here is a fool. The rhetoric can get quite heated but at the end of the day we all want the same thing. We all want to see Talossa thrive! We all want to see Talossa shine! We are Talossan's!

We are Talossan's!

I make a call to all of us to step out of our typical corners, join hands, put aside needless animosity, and be the ideal we want. To be the CHANGE we want. If I offended anybody let me be the first to apologize. @Baron Alexandreu Davinescu, @Breneir Tzaracomprada, @Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC, @King Txec.  I want to link arms with all of you and make this Talossan ideal a Talossan reality!

I applaud this call, Pol. I need to say I really like your new avatar! I have been urging people to show their faces here to humanize one another beyond the words we see so it is nice to see another face here. I need to give more thought to create an extended answer to your call.