This version of Wittenberg is now the legal national forum for Talossa! Feel free to explore it, and to check out the threads for feedback, requests and criticisms to make sure Wittenberg is tailored to you.

Author Topic: Immigration Law Problems!  (Read 1719 times)

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

  • Rexhaint d'Ian Regeu/Regent for King John
  • Citizen
  • Posts: 545
  • CONSISTE ET COGITA
    • Talossan since: 6-9-2006

    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2020, 11:04:47 PM »
...what?  I haven't had any special edit rights on the wiki for years.  A quick glance at the log shows that I have been a member of the Citizen user group since 2015: http://wiki.talossa.com/index.php?title=Special:Log/rights&offset=&limit=500&type=rights&user=  I demoted myself, incidentally, when I was no longer in office ;)

So I guess your case is that I was suddenly seized by rage over my loss of power on the wiki five years ago (power to do what?) and I was just forced to point out legitimate problems just to cause trouble.  And even more malevolently, I sent messages to the person in charge of fixing the problem beforehand.

The problem was fixed before we even knew about cases of vandalism though...

You left an 'easter egg' back in April (who was looking after Wiki accounts then anyway? I'm not sure) prior to us sorting out the access memberships.
In August we sort out the access rights after the previous admin left.
In September you reveal your April trick and blame it on the access groups being bloated.

?!?!

(You claim you haven't had any special editing rights for 5 years.. yet you managed to make that edit to a protected page in April?  Am I missing something here?  How could that have happened?)

So I think you're overall confused here.

Issue 1: A bunch of people have group rights that they don't need on the wiki.  Not a huge deal, as I said before, but something the new Scribe should probably fix.  I see Miestra fixed a bunch of it tonight after I pointed it out, actually.  Legitimate issue I pointed out in a friendly and polite manner and which was fixed.

Issue 2: Regular people in Citizens (like me!) shouldn't be able to quietly edit our laws, but our actual Organic Law wasn't in protected space.  I repeatedly tried to get it moved to lawspace a few months ago, including replacing the whole thing briefly and tagging it on Recent Edits with edits and leaving a couple of messages to the person in charge.  When I pointed it out in public, Miestra fixed the problem.  I forgot I had left a note in the thing while trying to get the problem fixed (in the preamble, without legal effect, because duh: http://wiki.talossa.com/index.php?title=Law%3A2017_Organic_Law&type=revision&diff=27362&oldid=27344).  I remembered tonight and pointed it out in a friendly and polite manner, and it was fixed.

You're conflating the two, but they're related only in that they're problems I pointed out so that they could be quickly and easily fixed.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 11:11:03 PM by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu »
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Açafat del Val

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 298
  • Senator for Florencia
    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2020, 10:35:36 AM »
Not that this statement bears any substantial change on the outcome, but for what it's worth, I would agree with the interpretation that Grigoriu's citizenship may be reinstated without violating the spirit of the law (although perhaps the letter of it).

Relatedly: I find it more tragic than ironic, though it is also ironic, that these threads continue to devolve into bitter and personal arguments. This is not a conducive decorum to immigration or retention of citizens. For the sake of our country, could we, for lack of a better word, chill out?

Also: While the effects of your vandalism, AD, may have been minimal, the intents and manner were not. Your actions of vandalism were born of bad faith, ill motives, and bad behavior. Help, don't hurt; be constructive, not destructive. If you can't play nice, please leave the sandbox.
Cheers,

AdV
Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

  • Rexhaint d'Ian Regeu/Regent for King John
  • Citizen
  • Posts: 545
  • CONSISTE ET COGITA
    • Talossan since: 6-9-2006

    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2020, 11:01:03 AM »
I find it more tragic than ironic, though it is also ironic, that these threads continue to devolve into bitter and personal arguments.

Well, it's been a week since this argument died, so I don't know why you'd decide to restart it with the rest of your post if you really don't enjoy it.

Also: While the effects of your vandalism, AD, may have been minimal, the intents and manner were not. Your actions of vandalism were born of bad faith, ill motives, and bad behavior. Help, don't hurt; be constructive, not destructive.
Seems kind of the opposite, actually -- I did a technical wrong because I was trying to help.  When I edited the page to delete the whole thing (http://wiki.talossa.com/index.php?title=Law:2017_Organic_Law&oldid=27343) and then undid that seconds later (http://wiki.talossa.com/index.php?title=Law%3A2017_Organic_Law&type=revision&diff=27344&oldid=27343), technically that's "vandalism," but it was one of a long series of good-faith things I did to try to draw attention to the fact that our supreme law was easily available to be edited in a way that maybe no one would even notice.  That is a real problem, even if I am inconveniently the one who noticed  If I was acting out of ill motives, I wouldn't point it out and ask that it be fixed.

Think how easily this could have been handled -- "lol I fixed it, thanks for reminding us to protect the page."  Instead it had to become a big pearl-clutching fight because you guys have to try to pretend that it was somehow malicious.

Would you have preferred I said nothing?  Should I have edited the actual law to change how elections are held?  Should I have said nothing and left the changes in there?  What would you prefer I do?

Alternatively, it would be completely fine if we went back to letting this argument be over.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Açafat del Val

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 298
  • Senator for Florencia
    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2020, 12:08:14 PM »
This ain't tribalism, bud. I'm a free agent.

I would prefer that you - and, by extension, the silent public who may be reading this - work in good faith to rectify problems and participate earnestly in public projects. It's not enough to make a covert edit, throw some tomatoes, and whinge.

I've been pretty consistent with my message, AD: I desperately want to like you, because I see that you're intelligent and can produce good work, but this incessant need on your part to tear down Miestra and the FreeDems is (a) beneath you, (b) unbecoming of what Talossa deserves from someone of your record, and (c) unproductively destructive.

I'm going to call it out whenever I see it, whether it's a week old or not. Unfortunately, my schedule does not bend to your whims and I'd have said something sooner if I had been available.

If you're not going to help clean up the Wiki, or help clean up El Lexhatx or the OrgLaw, or help do literally anything else going on, then sit down and be quiet. There are honest people in Talossa who are trying every day to push Talossa forward, whether that's SIGN and the language or GV as the Scribe, but you're not one of them. You think you are, perhaps, and maybe you were so at one point, but you are not anymore.

I'm running out of patience for your drivel, your whinging, and your hostility. Help out, or get out of the way. Your example is toxic, and it drowns out others' potential interest to get involved. The next time you want to post something to Witt, ask yourself: "Is what I'm about to say going to help this person, or hurt them?" If the latter, then keep your mouth shut.
Cheers,

AdV
Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

  • Rexhaint d'Ian Regeu/Regent for King John
  • Citizen
  • Posts: 545
  • CONSISTE ET COGITA
    • Talossan since: 6-9-2006

    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2020, 01:17:46 PM »
I would prefer that you - and, by extension, the silent public who may be reading this - work in good faith to rectify problems and participate earnestly in public projects. It's not enough to make a covert edit, throw some tomatoes, and whinge.

How about report the problem to the person in charge, wait a week, draw attention to it by trying to trip flags, waiting a week, second a second message to the person in charge, then editing ten times to make it dominant the Recent Changes without actually making any edits, then finally posting publicly about the problem?

Your huffy insistence that I am not allowed to point out problems unless I serve your interests in some way is bizarre and undemocratic.  Golly yes, it's been a few months since I invented a big new program like the Zuavs, and it's been a few years since I codified hundreds of laws into our legal code or built the wiki infrastructure or whatever.  But even if I had never done a single thing for this country then I would still stand up for my right to say, "Hey, this is a serious problem" when I see one.  It might be inconvenient for your party, but tough luck, buttercup.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

  • Rexhaint d'Ian Regeu/Regent for King John
  • Citizen
  • Posts: 545
  • CONSISTE ET COGITA
    • Talossan since: 6-9-2006

    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2020, 01:23:14 PM »
Look, this is so tedious and boring.  You guys do ahead and have the last word on this, since I am tired of it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 01:35:13 PM by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu »
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Açafat del Val

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 298
  • Senator for Florencia
    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2020, 01:34:38 PM »
Let me repeat: I'm a free agent, bud. Consider this my formal resignation from the FreeDems so that you can stop peddling these poorly veiled strawman arguments.

Miestra, GV, or anyone else: when you see this, please remove me from the Facebook group and other FreeDem ventures.

Now that that's out of the way--

You don't have to "serve my interests" in any way, AD, and it's pretty plain that I didn't say so. Maybe I was wrong for thinking that you were intelligent. Are we sure that you read English fluently? I'm starting to think that you never went to school.

The fact that you reduced my statement to that kind of fallacy is proving the point: you don't have to serve anyone's interests but Talossa's, yet you continue to peddle your own ego and low self-esteem under some really awful disguises. Buddy, if it's a serious problem, then step up to fix it or - how do I put this in a way that you'll understand? - shut up and stay out of the adults' way.

If you had the time to edit an article ten times, then you definitely had time to do something more productive with your attention. Maybe you could have - I don't know - reached out to GV on Facebook, on Witt, or in several other avenues-- but you didn't, did you?

So, either you're a pissant with nothing better to do than harass hard-working and well-meaning colleagues, so that you can feel just a little bit bigger in your small world, or you're a loser who gets joy from vandalizing and insulting others' hard work so that you can feel better about watching your legacy be stripped away. Maybe it's both.

In either case, it's time to put actions when your mouth is or, if you can't drum up enough patriotism for Talossa, to piss off and scurry back to your hole.

It might be inconvenient for your party, but tough luck, buttercup.
Cheers,

AdV
Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms

Offline Açafat del Val

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 298
  • Senator for Florencia
    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2020, 01:35:16 PM »
Look, this is so tedious and boring.  You guys do ahead and have the last word on this and I'm going to ignore it from now on.  Follow your bliss.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_playing
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 01:43:44 PM by Açafat del Val »
Cheers,

AdV
Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

  • Prime Minister
  • Citizen
  • Posts: 881
  • Large and In Charge
    • Talossan since: 2004-06-12

    • View Profile
    • Free Democrats of Talossa
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2020, 01:52:09 PM »
Let me repeat: I'm a free agent, bud. Consider this my formal resignation from the FreeDems so that you can stop peddling these poorly veiled strawman arguments.

Miestra, GV, or anyone else: when you see this, please remove me from the Facebook group and other FreeDem ventures.

Resignation rejected. When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way.

Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Talossa. Ask me anything.
JOIN THE FREE DEMOCRATS OF TALOSSA - ask me how!

"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Offline Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

  • Secretary of State
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 289
  • Fraichetz dels punts, es non dels mürs
    • Talossan since: 9-23-2012

    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2020, 01:14:06 PM »
It seems that in the 54th Cosa, two bills (54RZ8 and 54RZ13) both modified El.Lex.E.4. Both bills modified different sections of that law and both were approved by the Ziu.

As Scribe and SoS, I updated E.4 to reflect the two changes that were made. I also will from today on be adding comments on the Discussion page of both El.Lex and OrgLaw when I make changes or update it. This I think will make it easier for those who are interested to not only see what I've worked on but also to follow my thoughts.

Another thing I've started working on is fixing broken redirect links reflected in El.Lex. I know I personally tend to click those references to passed legislation to see the original bill. As I see them I will be updating them.

Thanks,

- Txec (Secretary of State and Scribe of Abbavilla)
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretary of State
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
Dal Kingsbridge Pursuivant
Former Seneschal

Offline Açafat del Val

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 298
  • Senator for Florencia
    • View Profile
Re: Immigration Law Problems!
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2020, 09:18:56 AM »
Dr. Róibeard dal Nordselvă, thank you immensely for this effort. Know that your work is recognized, respected, and greatly appreciated.
Cheers,

AdV
Senator for Florencia
Jolly Good Fellow of the Royal Talossan College of Arms