Ceadfă del Ziu: Restoration of National Honour

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

Well given the fact that the majority of subjects still resent him, I think it only be fair to change the method of restoring KR1's nationality.

That's not my point. I feel like you should've asked before making any sweeping changes like that.

[Mximo Malt]

Well given the fact that the majority of subjects still resent him, I think it only be fair to change the method of restoring KR1's nationality.

That's not my point. I feel like you should've asked before making any sweeping changes like that.

And just who, pray tell, should I have asked?

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

And just who, pray tell, should I have asked?

The people who put their signature on this bill before you made these changes, perhaps. Or the Seneschal whom you want to chair a T&RC.

[King Txec]

With regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

With regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

On the bill, I would suggest that a good first step would be making a visitor's account for him, and reaching out to invite him to use it. And the bill could be a good barometer of the nation's openness to that.

[Mximo Malt]

With regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

Pardon?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

With regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

Pardon?

That first whereas clause seemed to me to be a classic use of hyperbole, referring to our founding as freeing us from an iron fist when the person in question was not very tyrannical. We use that kind of language all the time when it comes to things like our founding.

[Mximo Malt]

With regret, the Whereas clauses are so loaded with bias and possible untruths, if this bill were to make it to a vote in the Ziu as written, and should it pass, I will veto it. I mean seriously, you weren't even alive in 1979 so saying that President Carter ruled with an iron fist is extremely melodramatic.

There are citizens who were here during his rule and your clauses refute, without any direct knowledge, their experiences.

-Txec R

I actually understood that to be classic Talossan hyperbole.

Pardon?

That first whereas clause seemed to me to be a classic use of hyperbole, referring to our founding as freeing us from a tyrant when the person in question was not very tyrannical. We use that kind of language all the time when it comes to things like our founding.

So they've been using that since the beginning? If this dissatisfies His Majesty, I ought to change it. Otherwise, why bother talking about this at all?

[King Txec]

It's better now.

-Txec R

[Mximo Malt]

It's better now.

-Txec R

Then I did my job.

- MM

[Mic’haglh Autófil, O.Be]

Sir Marcel has done a good job of offering criticism of this bill (in terms of form, content, and process) but to add a few other points in parallel:

- The people who suffered most under KR1's harassment back in the day have stated — back in 2019, mind you — that they would need to receive some kind of fence-mending from Ben to be comfortable with inviting him back.
- They have not yet received any such apology or anything from Ben in the six years since he tried to re-immigrate. He has had ample time and not used it in the slightest.
- Therefore, it is not appropriate for the Ziu to invite him back at this time.

This bill requires us to extend the hand first, when the proper way to make amends is for the one who caused the harm to swallow their pride and reach out. The door has remained open for six years, and no attempt to walk through it has been made.

[Françal I. Lux]

I frankly think this is an utter waste of time and needlessly divides the citizenry when we have more important things to do.

[Mximo Malt]

I find it incredibly ironic that our Ladintsch Naziunal shuns the very man who created the language he is entrusted to protect. If he comes back, he'd no doubt fill a lot of linguistic loopholes that we face, like where the word "Cestour" came from. I'm confident that Ben's return would be a step closer to solving this mystery.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

I find it incredibly ironic that our Ladintsch Naziunal shuns the very man who created the language he is entrusted to protect. If he comes back, he'd no doubt fill a lot of linguistic loopholes that we face, like where the word "Cestour" came from. I'm confident that Ben's return would be a step closer to solving this mystery.

I've already explained my stance on this, there is nothing "ironic" about it, nor are the hypothetical etymologies of uniquely Talossan terms a "loophole". If you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

I said in the beginning of this thread that your insinuation that people who don't want to see Ben back don't really love this country is repulsive. I stand by what I said then.

[Mximo Malt]

I find it incredibly ironic that our Ladintsch Naziunal shuns the very man who created the language he is entrusted to protect. If he comes back, he'd no doubt fill a lot of linguistic loopholes that we face, like where the word "Cestour" came from. I'm confident that Ben's return would be a step closer to solving this mystery.

I've already explained my stance on this, there is nothing "ironic" about it, nor are the hypothetical etymologies of uniquely Talossan terms a "loophole". If you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

I said in the beginning of this thread that your insinuation that people who don't want to see Ben back don't really love this country is repulsive. I stand by what I said then.

As you are well aware, I have removed that provision from the bill.

And you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

And you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

[Mximo Malt]

And you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

[Françal I. Lux]

Whatever perceived benefits this may theoretically bring to Talossa will undoubtedly be overshadowed by an outpouring of decades of grievances that will not do any of us here any favors.

I'm more interested in making sure the government functions well, than stoking up an emotional debate on whether the disgraced ex-king is well-behaved enough now to remigrate.

[Mximo Malt]

Whatever perceived benefits this may theoretically bring to Talossa will undoubtedly be overshadowed by an outpouring of decades of grievances that will not do any of us here any favors.

I'm more interested in making sure the government functions well, than stoking up an emotional debate on whether the disgraced ex-king is well-behaved enough now to remigrate.

I'm interested in that too, but not only the government, but the entire Kingdom!

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I just want to circle back on this bit:

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".