[CRL] The TalossaWiki is not a battleground Act

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

WHEREAS our TalossaWiki media contains may pages which are supposed to neutrally and factually detail many aspects of Talossa and its activity, and should not contain political attacks nor harassing statements;

BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED, that Article "J. Wittenberg" of the Statutory Law is renamed "J. Wittenberg and TalossaWiki", and is amended by the addition of the following articles:

4. A  Wiki tool, called "TalossaWiki" is made available to all Talossan Citizens, allowing these to create and enrich pages related to all aspects of our Kingdom, be it the State, the Government, the Provinces, the culture, the politics, the Law, and also pages provided biography of Talossan Citizens,
5. The update of all Wiki pages is made volunteerely by Citizens
6. The part of TalossaWiki providing informations must remain neutral and objective and shall report facts and not opinions. Inclusion of opinions should be limited to party members on their specific Polical Parties pages, or to citizens on their own personal Citizen pages
7. Any citizen or group of citizen who feels attacked or insulted by a comment on any the Wiki page can raise a case to the Court of Justice, after unsucessful attempts to solve the matter by discussion

[King Txec]

Wouldn't it be better if we operated our Wiki the way Wikipedia does instead of potentially criminalizing edits to TW?

-Txec R

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I have attempted to address this issue in the interim by proposing some changes to our manual of style: https://wiki.talossa.com/TalossaWiki_talk:Manual_of_style

Just for reference, this came up during the campaign when a party leader added a footnote with "claimed" to the values list of another party, implying that this claim was in doubt.  They also added in a promo for their party to a main namespace article.  Neither of these things was a huge deal, and the matter was addressed pretty quickly with a return to the status quo.  It might have been an innocent mistake, really.  We deliberately chose not to make a fuss and publicize the matter.  But it does look like we need some way to handle this, and our guidelines should be clear and set well in advance of the next election.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I recall pleading for this kind of measure (in the Discord) over two years ago and no one seemed to think it was a problem then...glad to see there has been a change in perspective.

I support this bill and will encourage its application not be based on the popularity of the offender or the victim.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

WHEREAS our TalossaWiki media contains may pages which are supposed to neutrally and factually detail many aspects of Talossa and its activity, and should not contain politician attacks nor harassment statements

I would recommend the last part of the whereas clause be edited to read as "should not contain political attacks or harassing statements"

[Mximo Malt]

WHEREAS our TalossaWiki media contains may pages which are supposed to neutrally and factually detail many aspects of Talossa and its activity, and should not contain politician attacks nor harassment statements

I would recommend the last part of the whereas clause be edited to read as "should not contain political attacks or harassing statements"

I did those to myself once...wasn't fun...


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[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

Wouldn't it be better if we operated our Wiki the way Wikipedia does instead of potentially criminalizing edits to TW?

Yeah, this is weaksauce.

I don't like the urge to criminalise political speech if it annoys us, and I'm very surprised to see this coming from the PA. Especially since the PA leader once deliberately vandalised a namespace wiki page to make a political point.

We need proper wiki moderation, which is a Chancery issue, and I support efforts in that regard. Troll edits should be removed and repeat offenders should get banned, but that is a moderation issue not Call The Police.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I'm not familiar with any provision transferring administration of the wiki to the Chancery.  I'm fairly sure that it's a Propaganda or Technology issue, unless I missed a significant legal change.

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

@Sir Lüc can you move this to CRL please ?

[King Txec]

WHEREAS our TalossaWiki media contains may pages which are supposed to neutrally and factually detail many aspects of Talossa and its activity, and should not contain political attacks nor harassing statements;

BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED, that Article "J. Wittenberg" of the Statutory Law is renamed "J. Wittenberg and TalossaWiki", and is amended by the addition of the following articles:

4. A  Wiki tool, called "TalossaWiki" is made available to all Talossan Citizens, allowing these to create and enrich pages related to all aspects of our Kingdom, be it the State, the Government, the Provinces, the culture, the politics, the Law, and also pages provided biography of Talossan Citizens,
5. The update of all Wiki pages is made volunteerely by Citizens
6. The part of TalossaWiki providing informations must remain neutral and objective and shall report facts and not opinions. Inclusion of opinions should be limited to party members on their specific Polical Parties pages, or to citizens on their own personal Citizen pages
7. Any citizen or group of citizen who feels attacked or insulted by a comment on any the Wiki page can raise a case to the Court of Justice, after unsucessful attempts to solve the matter by discussion

Notwithstanding the several grammatical errors which I presume would be fixed before Clarking, clause 7 is way too vague. Feeling attacked or insulted should never be grounds for a criminal case. Insults occur all the time, so should any insult anywhere be grounds for a criminal case? I think that terms such as libel would be more effective and much more in line with Organic law (not to mention more easily defined by a Cort or legal representative).

Also, I've bolded the grammar errors so they can be fixed (I also know that English is not your first language so errors are completely understandable). The English teacher in me couldn't help notice. For example, only proper nouns should be capitalized, and words like "citizen" and "political party" are not proper nouns. Later today, if you would like, I can make the edits for you and repost the bill in this thread.

-Txec R

[King Txec]

WHEREAS our TalossaWiki media contains many pages which are supposed to neutrally and factually detail many aspects of Talossa and its activity, and should not contain political attacks, nor harassing statements;

BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED, that Article "J. Wittenberg" of the Statutory Law is renamed "J. Wittenberg and TalossaWiki", and is amended by the addition of the following articles:

4. A wiki tool, called "TalossaWiki" is made available to all Talossan citizens, allowing them to create and enrich pages related to all aspects of our kingdom, including entities such as the State, the Government, the Provinces, culture, politics, the law, and pages providing biographies of Talossan citizens,
5. The update of all Wiki pages is made voluntarily by citizens of Talossa.
6. The sections of TalossaWiki which provide vital information must remain neutral and objective and shall report facts and not opinions. Inclusion of opinions should be limited to political party members on their specific political party pages, or to citizens on their own personal citizen pages.
7. Any citizen or group of citizen who feels attacked or insulted by a comment on any Wiki page can raise a case to the Court of Justice, after unsuccessful attempts to solve the matter by discussion.

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

Thanks your Majesty, too many mistakes indeed

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I'm not familiar with any provision transferring administration of the wiki to the Chancery.  I'm fairly sure that it's a Propaganda or Technology issue, unless I missed a significant legal change.

The Government has never, to my knowledge, administered TalossaWiki. The Government is in charge of "official pages", but TalossaWiki has always been administered by the Chancery not by the Government. There has been no legal change because the Government has never done this, and it has been the Chancery that keeps it ticking on in the background.

Actually, I'm quite surprised to note that apparently there is no legal establishment for TalossaWiki - I don't even know who set it up! Quite apart from the noxious and authoritarian s.7 of this bill, another weakness it shows is that s.4 is entirely in the passive voice - it doesn't say who administers Talossawiki.

If the Government does want to end the ambiguity and place TalossaWiki administration within its competences, this might be a good thing - if it means setting up effective moderation and surveillance, thus removing any excuse for Government Ministers to take citizens to court for disfavored speech.

[King Txec]

another weakness it shows is that s.4 is entirely in the passive voice - it doesn't say who administers Talossawiki.

I noticed that but it really wasn't my place to change the wording and indeed probably not even my place to edit the grammar, but the English teacher in me couldn't resist so I hope the MC didn't mind.

-Txec R

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I've deleted a previous post both for tone, and because I got some basic facts wrong.

I cannot see any way that I can support a bill that criminalises Wiki edits. Attacks on Wikipedia and its editing community are the stock in trade of authoritarians in other countries, who want to destroy collaborative knowledge creation. We will not have this in Talossa.

Quite aside from that, I don't think "raise a case to the Court of Justice" actually means anything. What remedy would our Courts have for someone making a Wiki edit that a Government minister considers obnoxious? Banishment? If this is a matter of individual harassment or disturbing the peace, there is already a law against that (El Lexh A.7.2.11 and A.7.3.2).

As I mentioned in the post above, however, there does seem to be legal ambiguity over who administers Talossawiki. I'm actually not fussed over whether it's the Government or the Chancery, but someone has to do it - and we probably need to make it unambiguous that they have the power to revert troll edits and ban repeat offenders. We enacted a law to remove such an ambiguity in the previous Cosa.

If this bill is rewritten to (a) make responsibility for administering Talossawiki unambiguous; (b) explicitly give admins/moderators of TalossaWiki authority to revert troll edits and ban repeat offenders, on the same line as the Consequences Act; (c) delete the noxious attempt to bring down the force of the Law on Wiki editors, it might prove useful.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

TalossaWiki has been a project of the Government from the first day.  It says so explicitly on the "TalossaWiki: About" linked at the bottom of every page, and it has since June of 2012, when we got it set up.

I'm not sure I'm entirely sold on the bill, generally.  But I think we can definitely do something along these lines.  And since it's become so important to us, we probably want to put some protection on it, generally.  þerxh, would you be willing to wait on sending it to the CRL?  Sorry, I know you were ready to go with it, and I should have said something earlier, but there's been a lot going on.

[Mximo Malt]

Would self-slander be criminalised if this bill were to pass?


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[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I guess you could sue yourself maybe.  If you also get yourself appointed as a judge, you could sue yourself, hear your own case, move to have yourself removed from the case, overrule your own motion, issue an injunction against yourself, and then implode into a ball of self-referential micronationalism.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Fun moments from the past: on 15 Jun 2012, this is what the front page looked like!

Then this was my first attempt at a real front page.  It looked incredibly bad.

Like a hundred edits later, it started to take shape and I had the basic idea set.  Hooligan moved around the tables to make them flow better here.  Istefan picked better colors here.

By 1 Jul, it looked basically the way it does now, here.  Since then, it's just been tweaking.

Stuff like this is why it's so rewarding to be a Talossan.  You can make stuff that can really make a difference for years.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Stuff like this is why it's so rewarding to be a Talossan.  You can make stuff that can really make a difference for years.

That's exactly how I feel about the BHAID...