The Cunstaval Reform Amendment

[owenedwards]

I just remembered that this is also the clause that the Proclamation Crisis was about - when the former King John vetoed a quite anodyne amendment just to fire a "warning shot" and emphasise that he had final say over all OrgLaw amendments - which started the process of removing that power. So there's also the sentimental value.

The Cort case is an interesting artefact.

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

Oh, I see. Well, that wouldn't be closing a loophole, that would be a significant change. In the past, some provinces have chosen to have their Constable also serve as the ceremonial head of state or the head of their government. So I don't want to prevent provinces from doing that. Provinces will already be now enabled to pass their own restrictions on who can hold the office, and they can add this restriction if they so choose.

That isn't exactly trye as the current convention in appointments of Cunstavals are supposed to be from a separate province.
As having a cunstaval also be the head of government in a province seems like a dangerous position with one person having too much power.

So doing so would be closing a loophole and formalising the principals behind currently conventions

Actually, there was a specific reform enacted to change the rule that Cunstavais need to be from a different province, since some people resented it.

I think provinces are probably the best judges of how to distribute power in their own province, right?  Most of them have chosen a weak executive.  They can decide to have any role or restriction that they want.

The major issue hear is Separation of powers as allowing a Cunstaval to become a head of a government, would be akin to allowing the King to become the senechal. And politisiing the crown in the province.

Allowing provinces to create laws about the limits of the Cunstaval outside of those granted under organic law, is honestly a good thing.

AndI support the idea of this bill.But, not in so far that it allows the politicisation of a possition that in its core, is the REPRESENTATIVE of the Crown and king in a province.

In order to allow what you're suggesting would actually be a great shift away from current laws and presidents in Talossa. And will dilute to separation of powers.

Which is why it should be clear in law that the Cunstaval of a province cannot become the head of government of ANY province, especially one they are Cunstaval over.

Honestly, it might be worth all saying that one cannot become Senechal too. (I think ministers, MC/sentarors and seats in provincial assemblies are debatebale but fine especially with the low active members we have, but I do think that holding executive power and the power of the crowns representative is a dangerous and undemocratic position)

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

In order to allow what you're suggesting would actually be a great shift away from current laws and presidents in Talossa. And will dilute to separation of powers.

Just to be clear: this aspect of the law would not be changed.  The current law already allows provinces to make their own decisions about that, and they can give any powers they wish to their cunstaval.  My bill isn't actually changing this.

So while I understand your criticism, it's a separate issue -- you're asking me to make an additional, complicated change that would restrict the provinces in a new way.

If I were to create this new restriction, I'm not sure how to word it.  It would be complicated to phrase it in such a way that it would be meaningful -- "you're not allowed to assign your cunstaval any powers" would essentially defeat our whole purpose here, so we'd need to... I don't know, make a list of powers that we're permitting them to assign?

I'm open to suggested amendments, if you have any language to add, but you're just demanding something outside of the scope of the bill.

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

In order to allow what you're suggesting would actually be a great shift away from current laws and presidents in Talossa. And will dilute to separation of powers.

Just to be clear: this aspect of the law would not be changed.  The current law already allows provinces to make their own decisions about that, and they can give any powers they wish to their cunstaval.  My bill isn't actually changing this.

So while I understand your criticism, it's a separate issue -- you're asking me to make an additional, complicated change that would restrict the provinces in a new way.

If I were to create this new restriction, I'm not sure how to word it.  It would be complicated to phrase it in such a way that it would be meaningful -- "you're not allowed to assign your cunstaval any powers" would essentially defeat our whole purpose here, so we'd need to... I don't know, make a list of powers that we're permitting them to assign?

I'm open to suggested amendments, if you have any language to add, but you're just demanding something outside of the scope of the bill.

That is a min understanding of what I said.

I my point was literally from the start was one specific thing, I only explained the above as reasons I believe my original point is actually more important than i put across before and why the bill should at least say that
"Should a Cunstaval be of the same province they are from, they shall not be eligible to be the head of government or executive of legislative branches of said province"

I think the wording is more clear than wha to have said in previous posts. I think other points about also being a senator or member of the legislature in a province should be thought about too, but that isn't a discussion for this bill. And my only priority here (which I should have been clearer about in my last response and I'm sorry that I wasn't) is to stop the possibility of the Cunstaval being the head of government in any province as has been my main concern from the start. Especially as this change has the potential to have a Cunstaval be from the same province which jm not against but only if the language of this bill reflects that in so far as saying in that scenario the Cunstaval will be ineligible to hold the executive office whilst they are Cunstaval. The law is always better with being clear on such things, especially in regards to separation of powers.
I'm just worried that if we don't pit that in now, it may cause issues down the line.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

You're kind of talking past me a bit, here.

Unless I'm mistaken, currently provinces are permitted to arrange their governments mostly how they please, including making the Cunstaval the head of any branch, right?  You're asking for these additional restrictions to be added on the provinces.

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

You're kind of talking past me a bit, here.

Unless I'm mistaken, currently provinces are permitted to arrange their governments mostly how they please, including making the Cunstaval the head of any branch, right?  You're asking for these additional restrictions to be added on the provinces.

" No person shall be at the same time Cunstaval of one province and the leader of the provincial government of another province"
Is what the law current says, but it doesn't say that if the Cunstaval is from the same province (which is an idea you support) that they can also become head of government in the province they are Cunstaval in.

I'm only arguing that this loophole be closed as I have said before. I do think a larger look at Cunstavals might be something to look to in the future, but having it in law, to say that
"A Cunstaval also, cannot be Cunstaval and head of government of the same province"
Is basically all I'm wanting to add to this for the moment. As it is not stated in law that that can't be the case, but it is the case that a Cunstaval can't be a head of government in another province. So this addition would make the same principal apply across the board should one day a Cunstaval is appointed the serve in their home province.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

" No person shall be at the same time Cunstaval of one province and the leader of the provincial government of another province"
Is what the law current says, but it doesn't say that if the Cunstaval is from the same province (which is an idea you support) that they can also become head of government in the province they are Cunstaval in.

Yes, it doesn't say that right now.  But the law doesn't have to give that permission and say, "You can make your cunstaval the head of government if you want."  Unless the law says they can't, provinces are allowed to do it.  So right now, it's permitted.  You're asking for a new restriction.

having it in law, to say that
"A Cunstaval also, cannot be Cunstaval and head of government of the same province"
Is basically all I'm wanting to add to this for the moment.

So if I add this new restriction, I've got your vote for the bill?

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

" No person shall be at the same time Cunstaval of one province and the leader of the provincial government of another province"
Is what the law current says, but it doesn't say that if the Cunstaval is from the same province (which is an idea you support) that they can also become head of government in the province they are Cunstaval in.

Yes, it doesn't say that right now.  But the law doesn't have to give that permission and say, "You can make your cunstaval the head of government if you want."  Unless the law says they can't, provinces are allowed to do it.  So right now, it's permitted.  You're asking for a new restriction.

having it in law, to say that
"A Cunstaval also, cannot be Cunstaval and head of government of the same province"
Is basically all I'm wanting to add to this for the moment.

So if I add this new restriction, I've got your vote for the bill?

The law doesn't say this yes but it is established convention. But yes, I would support the bill is this amendment was made.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Okay.  Well, your suggested language doesn't quite work.  But how about

"2. The King may appoint a Cunstaval (or Constable) for any Province to exercise these powers on his behalf.  A province may pass laws setting a term of office for its Cunstaval, specifying who is disqualified from the role, and assigning the Cunstaval a role in their government.  Unless otherwise fixed by national or provincial statute, the term of office shall be three years.  No person shall be at the same time Cunstaval of one province and the leader of the provincial government of that same province."

[Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir]

Okay.  Well, your suggested language doesn't quite work.  But how about

"2. The King may appoint a Cunstaval (or Constable) for any Province to exercise these powers on his behalf.  A province may pass laws setting a term of office for its Cunstaval, specifying who is disqualified from the role, and assigning the Cunstaval a role in their government.  Unless otherwise fixed by national or provincial statute, the term of office shall be three years.  No person shall be at the same time Cunstaval of one province and the leader of the provincial government of that same province."

Ok with the same province that should same/another province.
Or just "no person shall at the same time be a Cunstaval of one province and the head/leader of provincial government of any province"

[Mximo Malt]

Okay.  Well, your suggested language doesn't quite work.  But how about

"2. The King may appoint a Cunstaval (or Constable) for any Province to exercise these powers on his behalf.  A province may pass laws setting a term of office for its Cunstaval, specifying who is disqualified from the role, and assigning the Cunstaval a role in their government.  Unless otherwise fixed by national or provincial statute, the term of office shall be three years.  No person shall be at the same time Cunstaval of one province and the leader of the provincial government of that same province."

Ok with the same province that should same/another province.
Or just "no person shall at the same time be a Cunstaval of one province and the head/leader of provincial government of any province"

How does one be a citizen of two provinces simultaneously?

[King Txec]

How does one be a citizen of two provinces simultaneously?

They can't. The custom is for a Cunstaval to be a citizen of a different province than the one they reside in.

-Txec R