Moved from Immigration board re: ESB Affair

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

he did use his sockpuppets to vote, engage in political arguments, attack political opponents and in one case pretend to support a party he didnt like in a way that made the sockpuppet (and thus the party) look like a complete tool.

Perhaps its true he was just trying to see how much he could get away with. I think its very likely he was also motivated by partisan interest.

This is a tendentious rewriting of history. ESB's sock puppets - inc. Benedict Stamford - personally attacked me in a way that makes AD's sniping look like friendly banter. A strange way to go about it if he wanted to help the ZRT win. Of course most of the socks voted ZRT, but that surely comes under "supporting a party in such a way that made the party look like a complete tool", as you say.

In any case, this is why we should have a paragraph on the ESB Affair in the New Talossan History Project. Maybe you should write, Glüc?

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

he did use his sockpuppets to vote, engage in political arguments, attack political opponents and in one case pretend to support a party he didnt like in a way that made the sockpuppet (and thus the party) look like a complete tool.

Perhaps its true he was just trying to see how much he could get away with. I think its very likely he was also motivated by partisan interest.

This is a tendentious rewriting of history. ESB's sock puppets - inc. Benedict Stamford - personally attacked me in a way that makes AD's sniping look like friendly banter. A strange way to go about it if he wanted to help the ZRT win.

Benedict Stamford was an idiot and a charicature. I don't think people took him seriously at all. Certainly he caused me to see the RUMP more negatively. I'm pretty sure he hurt the RUMP more than he helped. The others were a lot more subtle.

Of course most of the socks voted ZRT, but that surely comes under "supporting a party in such a way that made the party look like a complete tool", as you say.

Only because they got caught.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Benedict Stamford was an idiot and a charicature. I don't think people took him seriously at all.

I hate to break it to you, but being abused and insulted by an idiot and a caricature happens to me quite often in Talossa and in other places, and it still hurts, badly. Just making sure that - even in your version of history where ESB was mainly motivated to help my party win - you don't think I was "in on it", or approved of it.

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

Either way, my guess is it wasn't as much support for the ZRT as dislike for the RUMP, especially since the support later moved to the NPW, which got a pretty big boost in the witt polls I was doing.

A lot of it also probably was just trolling.

Regardless, ascribing any of these actions to some push for stricter immigration laws that he never supported otherwise seems completely unbelievable to me.

[esbornatfiglheu]

he did use his sockpuppets to vote, engage in political arguments, attack political opponents and in one case pretend to support a party he didnt like in a way that made the sockpuppet (and thus the party) look like a complete tool.

Perhaps its true he was just trying to see how much he could get away with. I think its very likely he was also motivated by partisan interest.

This is a tendentious rewriting of history. ESB's sock puppets - inc. Benedict Stamford - personally attacked me in a way that makes AD's sniping look like friendly banter. A strange way to go about it if he wanted to help the ZRT win.

Benedict Stamford was an idiot and a charicature. I don't think people took him seriously at all. Certainly he caused me to see the RUMP more negatively. I'm pretty sure he hurt the RUMP more than he helped. The others were a lot more subtle.

Of course most of the socks voted ZRT, but that surely comes under "supporting a party in such a way that made the party look like a complete tool", as you say.

Only because they got caught.

The others were a lot less well fleshed-out than Benedict Stamford, to be honest.  When King John called me to confront me, he asked me how I had got ahold of BenStam's logins.  I had to tell him I'd made him up as well.

This was very much a project in "how much can I get away with" and very much less a "let's do this for partisan benefit."

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

Benedict Stamford was an idiot and a charicature. I don't think people took him seriously at all.

I hate to break it to you, but being abused and insulted by an idiot and a caricature happens to me quite often in Talossa and in other places, and it still hurts, badly. Just making sure that - even in your version of history where ESB was mainly motivated to help my party win - you don't think I was "in on it", or approved of it.

Oh, I absolutely dont think you approved or were in on it or anything. In the end, the betrayal probably hurt you, the ZRT, and the NPW more than anyone. Apologies if I suggested otherwise.

I also can fully understand youd be upset at Benedicts attacks on you, even if he was an idiot. Even worse, there were probably some real people who are also idiots that agreed with him (though Im pretty sure there were also many in the RUMP who were embarrassed to have him).

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

The others were a lot less well fleshed-out than Benedict Stamford, to be honest.  When King John called me to confront me, he asked me how I had got ahold of BenStam's logins.  I had to tell him I'd made him up as well.

;D The lesson from this is: ban all dramaturges from citizenship, they're too cunning and convincing.

Honestly, the only one which made me suspicious was "Judah P. Benjamin". Since I'd just finished reading one of Harry Turtledove's "CSA wins the Civil War" alt-histories.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Benedict Stamford was an idiot and a charicature. I don't think people took him seriously at all.

I hate to break it to you, but being abused and insulted by an idiot and a caricature happens to me quite often in Talossa and in other places, and it still hurts, badly. Just making sure that - even in your version of history where ESB was mainly motivated to help my party win - you don't think I was "in on it", or approved of it.

Oh, I absolutely dont think you approved or were in on it or anything. In the end, the betrayal probably hurt you, the ZRT, and the NPW more than anyone. Apologies if I suggested otherwise.

I also can fully understand youd be upset at Benedicts attacks on you, even if he was an idiot. Even worse, there were probably some real people who are also idiots that agreed with him (though Im pretty sure there were also many in the RUMP who were embarrassed to have him).

I honestly don't even remember how he was received, although I wish I did. I have a pretty good memory, but it fails me at the moment. When I have a chance later I will run a quick search and see what the chat was about him.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Not a lot there at all beyond when he joined, although I do see that when "Stamford" said that we shouldn't be receptive to the "quitters" that

ya'll are being a bunch of whiney pussies.  'I got insulted" or "I feel used..." or whatever.  Man up for gods sake.  Were the RUMP and screw the quitters

Hooligan posted a long and harsh reply, saying essentially that he was being an idiot, and that they left for good reason because they were driven out by a mad monarch, and that "anyone who says things like this is, in my mind, hoping to preserve the separation of Talossa that has been the scar on its history for eight years now, at the very moment when it is healing."

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

Here's something I told Lüc 3 June 2012:

"ik: I know for sure
ik: most people in the RUMP establishment
ik: are not really happy with stamfords behaviour
ik: hes just a weirdo
ik: try to ignore him"

(For those unaware, both Lüc and myself were members of a party in opposition to the RUMP government. Lüc apparently had lashed out against the RUMP earlier as a response to something Stamford had said.)

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Me, March 11 2012:

The Kingdom is enforcing the 14 year old age limit on immigrants, right? Benny the Corncob is raising my suspicion he might actually be two 7-year-olds in an adult trenchcoat.

... hold on there a motorscootin' moment. That date is before Reunision. I didn't realise ESB started this malarkey so early! Which puts to bed the idea that it was all a plot to win Kingdom elections for the ZRT, a party which didn't exist yet.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Me, March 11 2012:

The Kingdom is enforcing the 14 year old age limit on immigrants, right? Benny the Corncob is raising my suspicion he might actually be two 7-year-olds in an adult trenchcoat.

... hold on there a motorscootin' moment. That date is before Reunision. I didn't realise ESB started this malarkey so early! Which puts to bed the idea that it was all a plot to win Kingdom elections for the ZRT, a party which didn't exist yet.

Oh, I don't think anyone thinks it was just for partisan advantage, if you got that from what anyone has said. That wouldn't even make any sense, since that could have been done much more effectively with completely silent sock puppets. Instead, I think that just became part of it naturally... After all if you have a bunch of registered voters, you have to do something with them, right? I think the primary motivation was just as a lark, and ESB seems to hint as much. The electoral mischief was a side benefits, not the main purpose.

[GV]

Benedict Stamford was an idiot and a charicature. I don't think people took him seriously at all.

I hate to break it to you, but being abused and insulted by an idiot and a caricature happens to me quite often in Talossa and in other places, and it still hurts, badly. Just making sure that - even in your version of history where ESB was mainly motivated to help my party win - you don't think I was "in on it", or approved of it.

I vouch for Miestra here.  None of us had any clue as to just how ephemeral a number of our voters really were.  As for ESB himself, everyone can vouch for his good behavior since making his return to Talossa. 

And ESB did something a number of other 'villans' from Talossan history failed to do: he came clean with his mistakes and offenses and turned over a new leaf.  Both this point and his prior mistakes should be a part of any objective written history of Talossa.  I am glad he is with us now, and I have no problems doing Talossa with him.

[esbornatfiglheu]

Me, March 11 2012:

The Kingdom is enforcing the 14 year old age limit on immigrants, right? Benny the Corncob is raising my suspicion he might actually be two 7-year-olds in an adult trenchcoat.

... hold on there a motorscootin' moment. That date is before Reunision. I didn't realise ESB started this malarkey so early! Which puts to bed the idea that it was all a plot to win Kingdom elections for the ZRT, a party which didn't exist yet.

Oh, I don't think anyone thinks it was just for partisan advantage, if you got that from what anyone has said. That wouldn't even make any sense, since that could have been done much more effectively with completely silent sock puppets. Instead, I think that just became part of it naturally... After all if you have a bunch of registered voters, you have to do something with them, right? I think the primary motivation was just as a lark, and ESB seems to hint as much. The electoral mischief was a side benefits, not the main purpose.

Oh, I'm not hinting.  I'm saying it out loud.  At first, it was a project in "Hey, maybe you should vet your immigrants, no?"  Then it moved more in the lark direction following Reunison.  The attempt at partisan advantage wasn't really even on the list, as it DID dawn on me that if I just shut my damn mouth, that might be something that could happen.

There's a lot of conjecture about my motives and motivations, but hardly anyone has asked me.