Cosă size reduction timer

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

I have a question about the referendum on 62RZ26.

It mentions that the reduction of the Cosă's size to 20 seats would only take effect after February 2027, which is the timeline set forth from the Pseudo-Real Cosă Act. However, since 62RZ26 is an amendment, and the delayed effect of Cosă size changes only applies to changes made via statute (at least that's how Org.IV.2.1 reads to me), is it not rather the case that, were the referendum to pass, the size change would go into effect immediately?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I have a question about the referendum on 62RZ26.

It mentions that the reduction of the Cosă's size to 20 seats would only take effect after February 2027, which is the timeline set forth from the Pseudo-Real Cosă Act. However, since 62RZ26 is an amendment, and the delayed effect of Cosă size changes only applies to changes made via statute (at least that's how Org.IV.2.1 reads to me), is it not rather the case that, were the referendum to pass, the size change would go into effect immediately?

I think you could make that case for sure if that provision had been removed from the Organic Law, but we made sure to keep it in and it refers to laws in general. This was even discussed during the drafting process specifically, with regards to what effect it would have on the clock - it didn't reset the clock, but neither did it eliminate the clock.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

I think you could make that case for sure if that provision had been removed from the Organic Law, but we made sure to keep it in and it refers to laws in general. This was even discussed during the drafting process specifically, with regards to what effect it would have on the clock - it didn't reset the clock, but neither did it eliminate the clock.

No, this was in reference to something else. I was asking whether specifically renumbering Lexh.H.4.1.1 would reset the clock, and came to an understanding that it didn't. Enshrining the 20-seat Cosă into the OrgLaw was something I insisted on pretty much at the tail end of the drafting process, and personally I had assumed that all amendments enter into effect immediately after the appropriate referendum passes, and that the one-year delay refers exclusively to statutory changes -- if it didnt, the word "such" in "with the provisos that any such change" wouldn't make much sense to me, though this could be a language barrier thing.

EDIT: I don't mean to kick off a debate in this thread, I was moreso wondering about the precise wording of the referendum question, and whether that's all legally sound. As far as I understand it as a non-lawyer it wouldn't be, and I wanted to direct attention to it to clear up potential misunderstandings.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I think you could make that case for sure if that provision had been removed from the Organic Law, but we made sure to keep it in and it refers to laws in general. This was even discussed during the drafting process specifically, with regards to what effect it would have on the clock - it didn't reset the clock, but neither did it eliminate the clock.

No, this was in reference to something else. I was asking whether specifically renumbering Lexh.H.4.1.1 would reset the clock, and came to an understanding that it didn't. Enshrining the 20-seat Cosă into the OrgLaw was something I insisted on pretty much at the tail end of the drafting process, and personally I had assumed that all amendments enter into effect immediately after the appropriate referendum passes, and that the one-year delay refers exclusively to statutory changes -- if it didnt, the word "such" in "with the provisos that any such change" wouldn't make much sense to me, though this could be a language barrier thing.

EDIT: I don't mean to kick off a debate in this thread, I was moreso wondering about the precise wording of the referendum question, and whether that's all legally sound. As far as I understand it as a non-lawyer it wouldn't be, and I wanted to direct attention to it to clear up potential misunderstandings.

I think it's a great question. I understand where it's coming from! In my opinion, it's hard to read "law" in such a way that it doesn't include the Organic Law, though, and I wouldn't quite understand how to make it that way so that the proviso doesn't apply.

I also think you're right that we probably shouldn't chat about it more on this thread. @Sir Lüc , would you split off the last few posts please into their own thread?

[Sir Lüc]

Done.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

Splitting this from the main thread was the right call, but I do hope this will get cleared up before Balloting Day.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

In my opinion, it's hard to read "law" in such a way that it doesn't include the Organic Law, though, and I wouldn't quite understand how to make it that way so that the proviso doesn't apply.

Not hard at all: "set by law" refers to statute, like elsewhere in the OrgLaw. Org.IV.2.1 allows itself to be overridden by statute, with some added conditions, namely that enforcement is delayed by at least 12 months and that the statutory Cosă size may not dip below 15. When this section gets modified by an amendment directly, these restrictions shouldn't apply.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The Organic Law is definitely a law, and the Ziu just reaffirmed the intended waiting period that must elapse before a change in the size of the Ziu is in effect.  I think it's pretty plain, even if it seems annoying.

I think you'd have a stronger case if you were arguing that the clock was reset to start over, really, as opposed to the clock being eliminated.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

This has nothing to do with annoyance. Just to be clear, here is the sentence in question:

The party seats shall total 200, or another number which may be set by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next election following the passage of a calendar year; and that this number may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one.

The way that IV.2.1.1 is phrased currently, the word "such" in the subordinate clause listing the provisos refers back to the directly preceding subordinate clause, not the whole sentence. Choosing to interpret that sentence in such a way that these provisos apply to all changes to the size of the Cosă instead of merely "such" change such as "another number which may be set by law" would risk rendering it ungrammatical to me. Amending this part of the OrgLaw is not merely setting "another number" "by law", but a direct modification of the baseline, and the provisos still would only apply to statutory law overriding that baseline.

Then again, maybe I'm not as good at speaking English as I thought...!

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I am of the opinion that if we read the amendment in any way other than that the 62nd Cosa will be seated under 62nd Cosa rules, we are in for a world of hurt

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

This has nothing to do with annoyance. Just to be clear, here is the sentence in question:

The party seats shall total 200, or another number which may be set by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next election following the passage of a calendar year; and that this number may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one.

The way that IV.2.1.1 is phrased currently, the word "such" in the subordinate clause listing the provisos refers back to the directly preceding subordinate clause, not the whole sentence. Choosing to interpret that sentence in such a way that these provisos apply to all changes to the size of the Cosă instead of merely "such" change such as "another number which may be set by law" would risk rendering it ungrammatical to me. Amending this part of the OrgLaw is not merely setting "another number" "by law", but a direct modification of the baseline, and the provisos still would only apply to statutory law overriding that baseline.

Then again, maybe I'm not as good as English as I thought...!

Your interpretation is spot-on, but that doesn't really have any bearing on what I'm saying.  I'm saying that this was a change to the party seats that has been set by law, and that change happened with the passage of the statutory change earlier in the term.  The Organic Law says that "such change" takes effect after a certain amount of time.  That limit was just affirmed by the Ziu again.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

Your interpretation is spot-on, but that doesn't really have any bearing on what I'm saying.  I'm saying that this was a change to the party seats that has been set by law, and that change happened with the passage of the statutory change earlier in the term.  The Organic Law says that "such change" takes effect after a certain amount of time.  That limit was just affirmed by the Ziu again.

What I'm saying is that the Ziu has actually affirmed a change of the baseline during the last Clark by passing the Democracy Act and Amendment, independent of any statutory changes that will enter into effect as per the relevant proviso sometime next year. After all, should the amendment pass its referendum, Org.IV.2.1.1 will say "The party seats shall total 20, [...]", with the rest being equal.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

But even if the amendment's changes enter into effect immediately rather than next year, would that mean the 63rd Cosă would have 20 seats? And what about the other changes to the Cosă's composition such as seat limits and iron-clad party lists, would they come into effect with the 63rd Cosă or the 64th? We've actually been debating this on the URL Discord and it seems the only thing we could agree on is that this stuff is confusing lol. I believe there is a lot of potential for confusion and grave misunderstandings here that we would be better avoiding at all costs, so it'd be practical to collectively agree on some sort of "timeline of events" beforehand.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The Ziu affirmed a change, yes.  But it also affirmed the requirement that a change to the size of the Ziu would happen after the clock ran.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

But even if the baseline change would enter into effect immediately rather than next year, would that mean the 63rd Cosă would have 20 seats? And what about the other changes to the Cosă's composition such as seat limits and iron-clad party lists, would they come into effect with the 63rd Cosă or the 64th? We've actually been debating this on the URL Discord and it seems the only thing we could agree on is that this stuff is confusing lol. I believe there is a lot of potential for confusion and grave misunderstandings here that we would be better avoiding at all costs, so it'd be practical to collectively agree on some sort of "timeline of events" beforehand.

There's no other provision requiring a waiting time for any other changes, so I think everything else would come into play after the referendum passed.  I don't think there's anything to hold up anything like the ironclad Cosa lists, which will come into effect immediately after the referendum is passed (so everyone should prepare for that now!)

The Cosa will have 200 seats this upcoming term, and 20 after that.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

The Ziu affirmed a change, yes.  But it also affirmed the requirement that a change to the size of the Ziu would happen after the clock ran.

Where? If you agree with my interpretation that baseline changes are immediate and only statutory changes are subject to delays (you called my interpretation to that effect "spot-on" half an hour ago), then the effect would be immediate. When and where did the Ziu agree that this particular baseline change to Org.IV.2.1 would only enter into effect during or after February?

I don't think there's anything to hold up anything like the ironclad Cosa lists, which will come into effect immediately after the referendum is passed (so everyone should prepare for that now!)

That's an interesting point, actually. Miestră believes that ironclad lists cannot come into effect immediately because electoral lists under the current pre-referendum system are not the same form as the ironclad post-referendum system, i.e. they're not numerically ordered. In her view, the Cosă constitutes under the old rules as soon as the election results are published, but before any amendments enter into effect.

If this isn't a reason for all of us to come to an agreement as to when and how the amendment enters into effect and what ramifications it would have, I don't know what is.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

When and where did the Ziu agree that this particular baseline change to Org.IV.2.1 would only enter into effect during or after February?

The Ziu affirmed the underlying rule governing when changes to the size of the Ziu would come into effect by passing the same language with that requirement, unchanged.

That's an interesting point, actually. Miestră believes that ironclad lists cannot come into effect immediately because electoral lists under the current pre-referendum system are not the same form as the ironclad post-referendum system, i.e. they're not numerically ordered. In her view, the Cosă constitutes under the old rules as soon as the election results are published, but before any amendments enter into effect.

If this isn't a reason for all of us to come to an agreement as to when and how the amendment enters into effect and what ramifications it would have, I don't know what is.

That's actually a really good point.  Could people be fairly held to requirements that didn't yet exist, knowing that they probably will but might not exist in the future?  I don't think so... I think you're right on this one, and I'm wrong.  I think the whole thing will come into effect not in this upcoming Cosa, but the next one.  Good thinking.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Okay, so these are the effects of the bill:

• Baseline 20 seats
• Ordered list
• Redistribution via ordered list
• Seat limit change
• Consent to be on a list required

I think there's no barrier to these things being expected to come into effect immediately upon ratification:

• Seat limit change

I think that these requirements require a process that cannot be expected to have occurred (ranked lists) or which have a timer running, and so they will happen with the 64th Cosa:

• Baseline 20 seats
• Ordered list
• Redistribution via ordered list
• Consent to be on a list required

I would have said a lot differently about some of those things, but Miestra's argument as you recount it is rock-solid... parties can't have ordered lists going into this election, and so effects cascading from that are nullified.

Maybe a PD is in order to clarify expectations and the timeline, since you're right that this is confusing.  That's what happens when you rush, I guess... we really hustled to make the last Clark with that one.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

I think there's no barrier to these things being expected to come into effect immediately upon ratification:

• Seat limit change

I think that these requirements require a process that cannot be expected to have occurred (ranked lists) or which have a timer running, and so they will happen with the 64th Cosa:

• Baseline 20 seats
• Ordered list
• Redistribution via ordered list
• Consent to be on a list required

The seat limit change is related to the abolition of off-listers, so as long as off-listers are abolished for the 63rd Cosă onwards, I believe this timeline should be fine.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I think there's no barrier to these things being expected to come into effect immediately upon ratification:

• Seat limit change

I think that these requirements require a process that cannot be expected to have occurred (ranked lists) or which have a timer running, and so they will happen with the 64th Cosa:

• Baseline 20 seats
• Ordered list
• Redistribution via ordered list
• Consent to be on a list required

The seat limit change is related to the abolition of off-listers, so as long as off-listers are abolished for the 63rd Cosă onwards, I believe this timeline should be fine.

I missed two things:

• No more new citizen seats, taking effect immediately after ratification
• No more off-list, which I think I agree takes effect immediately after ratification