"Compromise"

[Sir Ian Plätschisch]

Well, it was just a couple of days ago that you were flinging names and abuse, shouting that I was just an outrageous troll for pointing out that there was no real compromise... and now it seems you are trying to negotiate one on behalf of your party leader.  So please forgive me if I find it hard to take your latest noise seriously.

I remember when the 54th Cosa coalition agreement was announced, it included an agreement that the new Government would pass Ian P's Talossa Is Not Wittenberg Act.  Sure enough, it passed.  But as soon as there were the votes in the 55th Cosa -- in the very first Clark! -- the Shark Tank Act was passed.  So whoever's negotiating this secret agreement: I suggest you try to get better terms than "we agree for exactly as long as we must."

In other words, it's not okay to fix something which is obviously broken?  If we keep this logic, we might as well return to the 1979 Constitution.

Whether or not that Act was "obviously broken" depends on who you ask.

[Sir Ian Plätschisch]

i am by no means conservative, and definitely not that type of spooked conservative who jumps up-and-down when the date on the calendar moves on. what even would be a problem if talossa turns republic? like someone is going to lose hir aristocratic sandbox, no more fancy and empty titles, no dandy CoA-s? or republic would be so unattractive to those new prospective citizens who today stay in lines before the gates of talossa and then when let in, they swirl in social and cultural activity?

This is pretty dismissive of aspects of the Monarchy that some people like a lot. Creating "vivid cultural life" is really hard, and I wouldn't scoff at anything that helps.

talossa rather needs vivid cultural life than vain symbols. or we're going to turn into a dusty museum. don't get me wrong, i love museums, but just as deposits of well-organised artifacts, not a place to live.

People have been saying this for years, but I don't see how getting rid of the Monarchy, or putting its powers under some other body, would help at all. The problem you are diagnosing is not the fault of the Monarchy; rather, of general apathy.

[esbornatfiglheu]

talossa rather needs vivid cultural life than vain symbols. or we're going to turn into a dusty museum. don't get me wrong, i love museums, but just as deposits of well-organised artifacts, not a place to live.

People have been saying this for years, but I don't see how getting rid of the Monarchy, or putting its powers under some other body, would help at all. The problem you are diagnosing is not the fault of the Monarchy; rather, of general apathy.

I wonder about digging to the root of the general apathy.  I'm spitballing here, but it's something I've been chewing over for a while.  I wonder if the monarchy in its current iteration might not be the root of at least some of the apathy that we are experiencing.  If people are joining for courts and kings and whatnot, then the throne needs to be a vital cultural force.  If it's not, we need a way to swap out the occupant in an efficient manner.

What about Knighthoods?  Peerages?  If people are joining for the pomp of royalty, this is what they are joining for.  When one doesn't materialize in short order, they go on their way to become the Hey-Nay-Nay of Sha-na-nah or whatever.  They go to the place that gives them what they want.

I would love to see the peerage system reset itself with every new king, excepting former royal households perhaps.  New Barons and dukes and knights and whatnot.  Talossa is at its most active and interesting when it is in the process of inventing itself.  So maybe that's what we need as a shot in the arm.

[King Txec]

talossa rather needs vivid cultural life than vain symbols. or we're going to turn into a dusty museum. don't get me wrong, i love museums, but just as deposits of well-organised artifacts, not a place to live.

People have been saying this for years, but I don't see how getting rid of the Monarchy, or putting its powers under some other body, would help at all. The problem you are diagnosing is not the fault of the Monarchy; rather, of general apathy.

I wonder about digging to the root of the general apathy.  I'm spitballing here, but it's something I've been chewing over for a while.  I wonder if the monarchy in its current iteration might not be the root of at least some of the apathy that we are experiencing.  If people are joining for courts and kings and whatnot, then the throne needs to be a vital cultural force.  If it's not, we need a way to swap out the occupant in an efficient manner.

What about Knighthoods?  Peerages?  If people are joining for the pomp of royalty, this is what they are joining for.  When one doesn't materialize in short order, they go on their way to become the Hey-Nay-Nay of Sha-na-nah or whatever.  They go to the place that gives them what they want.

I would love to see the peerage system reset itself with every new king, excepting former royal households perhaps.  New Barons and dukes and knights and whatnot.  Talossa is at its most active and interesting when it is in the process of inventing itself.  So maybe that's what we need as a shot in the arm.

I would love to see the Monarch give out more knighthoods and peerages. The UK system gives them to a lot of different people but here in Talossa it is exceedingly rare. I believe that would draw people in. I joined for that reason and I must admit I've been disappointed at the rarity of honors in the past several years. There are people who do a lot for this kingdom and they could be recognized for that.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I wonder if the monarchy in its current iteration might not be the root of at least some of the apathy that we are experiencing.  If people are joining for courts and kings and whatnot, then the throne needs to be a vital cultural force.  If it's not, we need a way to swap out the occupant in an efficient manner.

As I keep saying - the best argument that a life-term monarchy doesn't work is the behaviour of the incumbent, who - by the way - hasn't even spoken to his own Government since he came back from nowhere. Of course, I sure he checks in with his "Privy Councillor", Baron von Head-The-Ball, on a daily basis.

I don't think anyone can defend logically, or on constitutional propriety grounds, the argument that the King should simply ignore the elected Government if they're not of the same political mind with him. But people will make up specious arguments to defend it if they don't like the elected Government and like the King, of course.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

In other words, it's not okay to fix something which is obviously broken?  If we keep this logic, we might as well return to the 1979 Constitution.

Perhaps this illustrates why so many are afraid that next term, it will be honours that are "obviously broken."  I'm not saying you're insincere, but rather that stuff that seems obviously broken to you might be stuff we want to keep!  I mean, perhaps seven years is too long, and the term will get bumped down a bit.  Or perhaps appointments are what need to be fixed, since shouldn't need the president's approval.

Look at the Witt thread.  Ian posted a very reasonable list of reasons why he thought it wasn't broken.  No one even bothered to answer him on the thread.

I don't know who's involved in the secret negotiations.  But whoever it is should be sure they get explicit and firm commitments, made in public.

I wonder about digging to the root of the general apathy.  I'm spitballing here, but it's something I've been chewing over for a while.  I wonder if the monarchy in its current iteration might not be the root of at least some of the apathy that we are experiencing.  If people are joining for courts and kings and whatnot, then the throne needs to be a vital cultural force.

Not speaking of you, but a lot of people have been sneering and mocking a lot of those aspects of the nation for a long time, often referencing the Society for Creative Anachronism by way of comparison.  And while this needn't necessarily be so, most of the people who were heavily involved in those things were fairly interested in monarchy as an institution, and a lot of them have moved on.  There's a lot of reasons for that, though.

I hope that this trend will reverse soon.  I have tried to be open to all sorts of things, even stuff not in my ordinary range of interests, to try to support new initiatives.  (That's why I asked my eldest if she wanted to enter an art contest.)

I'll also point out that knighthoods and peerages are only perceived as meaningful because they are (a) rare, (b) usually given for significant achievements, and (c) connected with an institution that is seen as meaningful.  If we begin giving them out frequently or make them temporary, then I don't believe people will care about them more.  I believe His Majesty does intend to act further in these regards, though and there are several worthy recipients I can imagine in the future.

Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time doing and creating various cultural things in our country, including some very recently, I can say that it's very hard.  There's not much support, either in real terms or even emotional ones, and it can feel like you're shouting into a void.  When I ran a D&D game or when I revamped the Zuavs, there was no infrastructure to support and not a lot of real community at the start.  (Not that other people aren't involved and contributing in an amazing way.)  And I'm not trying to whine about it, since I liked it and it was interesting, but it's hard to keep that up for long without burning out.  That's true about the pseudo-feudal things, too.

I'd like to get the College more active, but there's just so few active people in general, and I can't afford to make another long-term commitment  :(

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I don't know who's involved in the secret negotiations.  But whoever it is should be sure they get explicit and firm commitments, made in public.

Our monarchist interlocutors specifically said there wouldn't be any point making public commitments before the election, but afterwards I hope that'll be possible.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

Where did the post go?

[King Txec]

Where did the post go?

Which post?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I briefly had a post up asking why the whole thing was going to be kept a secret from voters, but I decided that there was no real need to make that point and I should just leave it.

[GV]

I briefly had a post up asking why the whole thing was going to be kept a secret from voters, but I decided that there was no real need to make that point and I should just leave it.

Plans within plans...

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

Why would a monarchist party who were genuinely interested in talking to Free Democrats about getting reassurances want to open themselves up to get the same levels of slander thrown at them that the Baron is throwing at the Free Democrats, for being traitors or sellouts or whatever?

[GV]

Why would a monarchist party who were genuinely interested in talking to Free Democrats about getting reassurances want to open themselves up to get the same levels of slander thrown at them that the Baron is throwing at the Free Democrats, for being traitors or sellouts or whatever?

It reminds me ever so slightly of why in part the Republic was so stubborn in not making a return in 2005.  We know in the Kingdom of that time, we would be looked upon as thieves and criminals not by everyone, but by enough people and enough day-to-day actives for our return for us to be a most unpleasant prospect.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Why would a monarchist party who were genuinely interested in talking to Free Democrats about getting reassurances want to open themselves up to get the same levels of slander thrown at them that the Baron is throwing at the Free Democrats, for being traitors or sellouts or whatever?

It wasn't slander to point out that there was no compromise, because republicans hadn't actually agreed to any deal (beyond their plans to take what they want now and come back for more soon). That's why you're now engaged in these secret negotiations! And it's not slander now to ask why this information has to be hidden from the voters until after the election. This is a democracy, not an oligarchy!

[esbornatfiglheu]

Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time doing and creating various cultural things in our country, including some very recently, I can say that it's very hard.  There's not much support, either in real terms or even emotional ones, and it can feel like you're shouting into a void.  When I ran a D&D game or when I revamped the Zuavs, there was no infrastructure to support and not a lot of real community at the start.  (Not that other people aren't involved and contributing in an amazing way.)  And I'm not trying to whine about it, since I liked it and it was interesting, but it's hard to keep that up for long without burning out.  That's true about the pseudo-feudal things, too.

Awards and honours, excepting possibly the grants of arms should not be automatic or granted just willy-nilly.  That would truly rob them of import.

What I wonder, though, is perhaps there could be a nobility starter pack, for lack of a better term.  Something that gets people started in that train of action.  Like, a list of 5-6 accomplishments (or similar) earns you a Baronetcy (I think that's the lowest noble rank, but whatever).  That gives a way to get started to people who are interested in nobility and peerage.  Then anything beyond that is for extraordinary service (or just being the king's buddy as the case may be, since it is at their discretion).

I know this is similar to the Zuav system. But that could provide a scaffold for the entire Talossan honours system.  Be they military, noble, or scholarly.   

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Speaking as someone who has spent a lot of time doing and creating various cultural things in our country, including some very recently, I can say that it's very hard.  There's not much support, either in real terms or even emotional ones, and it can feel like you're shouting into a void.  When I ran a D&D game or when I revamped the Zuavs, there was no infrastructure to support and not a lot of real community at the start.  (Not that other people aren't involved and contributing in an amazing way.)  And I'm not trying to whine about it, since I liked it and it was interesting, but it's hard to keep that up for long without burning out.  That's true about the pseudo-feudal things, too.

Awards and honours, excepting possibly the grants of arms should not be automatic or granted just willy-nilly.  That would truly rob them of import.

What I wonder, though, is perhaps there could be a nobility starter pack, for lack of a better term.  Something that gets people started in that train of action.  Like, a list of 5-6 accomplishments (or similar) earns you a Baronetcy (I think that's the lowest noble rank, but whatever).  That gives a way to get started to people who are interested in nobility and peerage.  Then anything beyond that is for extraordinary service (or just being the king's buddy as the case may be, since it is at their discretion).

I know this is similar to the Zuav system. But that could provide a scaffold for the entire Talossan honours system.  Be they military, noble, or scholarly.

I like this as an idea for a way to formalize the process for Government recommendations. But you're also right that it's essentially the same system I came up with for the Zuavs. So I'd imagine we'd want to see it actually work for several years before we switched over the honours system to it. Definitely something to consider, though!

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

it's not slander now to ask why this information has to be hidden from the voters until after the election.

Well, not "the voters", just you.

If you're going to pour mud on anyone who disagrees with you, don't be surprised if people want to disagree with you privately.

However, I have no objection to you saying "these discussions are only happening because I'm such a great politician and brave truth-teller and I forced them into it". Sure, why not, you made it happen. Thanks.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

Awards and honours, excepting possibly the grants of arms should not be automatic or granted just willy-nilly.  That would truly rob them of import.

What I wonder, though, is perhaps there could be a nobility starter pack, for lack of a better term.  Something that gets people started in that train of action.  Like, a list of 5-6 accomplishments (or similar) earns you a Baronetcy (I think that's the lowest noble rank, but whatever).  That gives a way to get started to people who are interested in nobility and peerage.  Then anything beyond that is for extraordinary service (or just being the king's buddy as the case may be, since it is at their discretion).

I know this is similar to the Zuav system. But that could provide a scaffold for the entire Talossan honours system.  Be they military, noble, or scholarly.

While as you know I have something of an allergy to feudal titles, I understand that many others love and treasure them. I like the idea of a cursus honorum in Talossa, that you can earn rank (for bragging rights only, no monetary gain or political privileges) by public service. But on the other hand, when we discussed this last time, some said it really was turning Talossa into an RPG. So this is definitely where I want the next Government to go re: "keeping the interest of newbies once they're citizens", but we need a plan and someone to carry it out.

Honestly, I think it should start even to qualify for citizenship. Bring back the civics test!

[esbornatfiglheu]

Awards and honours, excepting possibly the grants of arms should not be automatic or granted just willy-nilly.  That would truly rob them of import.

What I wonder, though, is perhaps there could be a nobility starter pack, for lack of a better term.  Something that gets people started in that train of action.  Like, a list of 5-6 accomplishments (or similar) earns you a Baronetcy (I think that's the lowest noble rank, but whatever).  That gives a way to get started to people who are interested in nobility and peerage.  Then anything beyond that is for extraordinary service (or just being the king's buddy as the case may be, since it is at their discretion).

I know this is similar to the Zuav system. But that could provide a scaffold for the entire Talossan honours system.  Be they military, noble, or scholarly.

While as you know I have something of an allergy to feudal titles, I understand that many others love and treasure them. I like the idea of a cursus honorum in Talossa, that you can earn rank (for bragging rights only, no monetary gain or political privileges) by public service. But on the other hand, when we discussed this last time, some said it really was turning Talossa into an RPG. So this is definitely where I want the next Government to go re: "keeping the interest of newbies once they're citizens", but we need a plan and someone to carry it out.

Honestly, I think it should start even to qualify for citizenship. Bring back the civics test!

I mean, ultimately the training wheels have to come off and people will need to figure out how to ride their own hobby-horses.  Whether that be political reform, media, or whatever it is that they want to do.  But some sort of "starter" experience might be just the thing.  I keep thinking about games that do indeed have a central quest and progression... but that most players eventually wind up making their own fun.

Does that mean a touch of gamification?  Perhaps, and I'm not sure that is necessarily a bad thing.  "From Esquire to Baronet" as a Talossan starter "mission."  Get people acquainted with how things work.  Maybe that's before they become eligible for arms?  Honestly, we might have a thing or two to learn from the SCA structure.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

If you're going to pour mud on anyone who disagrees with you, don't be surprised if people want to disagree with you privately.

Well said!  :D