I'm waiting for a callback from Ben.  He & I are planning to have lunch sometime, probably a weekend.  Would have been this past weekend if I hadn't been dead to the world for most of it.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 30, 2025, 05:13:55 PM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 30, 2025, 05:02:47 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PMI am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source):

Quote from: King BenThe language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source):

Quote from: Tomás GariçeirIf things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult not to read though these things and not get that impression.

20 Year old posts I had no access to, at that, {shrug}.

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 05:00:18 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:54:26 PM

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP on December 27, 2025, 04:52:37 PM

Quote from: Mximo Malt on December 27, 2025, 04:48:44 PMAnd you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

Bear in mind, at the same time, the Kingdom's webmaster was refusing to release ownership of any web assets to Ben (even when redundant, dotcom versus dotorg) unless he was paid web developer wages for all of the "work" he'd previously volunteered in service for the Kingdom.  There was a LOT of "tit for tat" going on, and at this remove who started it doesn't really matter.  Just realize it was NOT one-sided.  It was never one-sided.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 04:56:10 PMI just want to circle back on this bit:

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on December 26, 2025, 03:34:57 PMHis concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on December 27, 2025, 12:03:00 AMGiven that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I will ask.  Because I have enough IRL trans friends via sci-fi fandom to be concerned by that as well.

To be fair, knowing who the first trans person he was ever exposed to was, back in the formative 1980's, one of the weird-even-by-other-pagan's-estimation pagans around the university, I can see why he would be initially repulsed and never want to deal with that realm again.  First impressions carry a lot of weight. 

To understand said (now deceased, I've heard) pagan's unhealthy life focuses, I can tell you that s/he was an ardent fan of Jacqueline Lictenberg, Jean Lorrah, and disgraced author Marion Zimmer Bradley.  That's the first impression a trans person has to overcome, interacting with Ben.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on December 06, 2025, 05:08:16 PMI think probably a first step would be re-opening a conversation with the former king, and asking if this is something he's still interested in.  When he broached the subject a couple of years ago, people were mostly only open to his return if he was willing to take some accountability for his behavior.  But he might be ready to do that to some degree, and re-enter our community as a citizen.  He's 60 years old and still alive, so he's already defied the prophecy that said he would die at 59.  Maybe that's when he'll be ready to talk about it.

Over the years, a lot of people have accepted responsibility for their role in past events.  For example, His Grace, Duke John, made a speech about how the Kingdom should have reached out more to the Republic in the time of schism and worked to close that breach earlier, and apologizing on behalf of the country for how former King Robert treated them while they were citizens.  And Marti-Pair and Ieremiah apologized for taking control of the Talossan webspaces when founding the Republic.  The Seneschal has publicly apologized for her attitude and treatment of others prior to her election as senator.  I have apologized for my treatment of a former citizen.

Former King Robert did everything possible to try to usurp control from the people when they started to drift away from him.  When he lost, he tried to bring Talossa to the ground.  Maybe he's ready to talk about that.

I disagree with your use of the word "usurp", because, from his standpoint, it was other people trying to usurp control of his creation from him! Can we kindly use less charged language?  Each side has much to apologize for, demanding apology while giving none in return is NOT the way to go.  Call it a wash and move on.  It's all relative, anyway; one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Following the Independence Day lunch with Mic'hel and all-too-brief meeting of Mximo, I telephoned Ben.  He stated that he has no intent or desire to "force his way back in", but that if invited he would be interested in coming back.  I am naturally willing to act as intermediary.  This legislation, or something like it, would serve as an excellent gauge to the Regipat's willingness to allow this.

Though maybe it does need to be reframed a little.  I'm mulling over my thoughts.

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him.  I think this "Ship of Theseus" has changed enough planks to be different enough, while of course maintaining the same overall shape. 

Let's at least resolve to be civil.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, O.Be on December 23, 2025, 05:13:32 PMWHEREAS, the current immigration process is noted for several shortcomings, and

WHEREAS, several different bills were proposed in the last Cosa term to address them, and

WHEREAS, these bills largely focused on different aspects of the process, and each had bill had its positives and negatives, and

WHEREAS, a compromise bill focused on a "carrot and stick" approach seems the most likely method to ensure the process is improved as much as possible; then

BE IT RESOLVED by the Ziu that the following changes be made to El Lexhatx:

• Title E, Section 2.1, which currently reads:

  QuoteThe Minister of Immigration shall ascertain to their own satisfaction that the prospective immigrant is a real human being with genuine interest in becoming a citizen of the Kingdom of Talossa. The Minister shall be free to inquire of the applicant on any and every subject, and shall be required to collect the legal name or name used in daily life, postal address (optional if the applicant is under 18 years of age, except for information needed to assign the applicant to a province), telephone number, and e-mail address(es) of the candidate, which information the Minister shall communicate to the Secretary of State. The applicant shall affirm or swear, under penalty of perjury and under the provisions of Lexh.A.16.1., that this information is accurate, and shall provide documentary evidence of the same if the Minister thinks it appropriate.

  shall be amended by deletion of the text "telephone number, ".
• Title E, Section 2.6 shall be created to read:

  QuoteAll immigration applications shall be automatically forwarded to an email address under the control of the Crown. This email address shall not be accessible to any member of His Majesty's Government, but the King shall give access to this email address to the Leader of the Opposition or their designee.

• Title E, Section 5, which currently reads:

  Quote5. If, at any point during the process, either before or after creation of the Wittenberg account, the Immigration Minister determines that the prospective immigrant shall not be considered further, the prospective immigrant shall be informed of this decision, and shall be made aware that a Grant of Citizenship may yet be obtained by the disappointed applicant if an act of the Ziu be passed directing that such a grant be issued. Any account created for the applicant on Wittenberg shall then be terminated.
  
  5.1 Any person, whose citizenship is denied, may in the first case appeal this decision by application to the Secretary of State, and be given the Chancery's contact details to enable them to do so. The Secretary of State may, if they believe the Ministry of Immigration has misused their discretion under Talossan law, report to the Ziu with their reasons for so deciding and recommend that the applicant or prospective citizen be given citizenship by act of the Ziu. Alternatively, the applicant or prospective may reapply by undergoing the entire procedure (minus any successfully completed portions) following the next general election.

  shall be replaced in its entirety with:

  Quote5. If, at any point during the process, either before or after creation of the Wittenberg account, the Immigration Minister and any member of the Opposition determine that the prospective immigrant shall not be considered further, the prospective immigrant shall be informed of this decision, and shall be made aware that a Grant of Citizenship may yet be obtained by the disappointed applicant if an act of the Ziu be passed directing that such a grant be issued. Any account created for the applicant on Wittenberg shall then be terminated.
  
  5.1. This decision may only be made after the application has been processed and posted, and the public must be informed of the minister's decision and the justification for the decision.  The public need not be informed if an insufficient application is being returned to the applicant under the terms of Lexh.E.2.4.
  
  5.2. Any person, whose citizenship is denied, may in the first case appeal this decision by application to the Secretary of State, and be given the Chancery's contact details to enable them to do so. The Secretary of State may, if they believe the Ministry of Immigration has misused their discretion under Talossan law, report to the Ziu with their reasons for so deciding and recommend that the applicant or prospective citizen be given citizenship by act of the Ziu. Alternatively, the applicant or prospective may reapply by undergoing the entire procedure (minus any successfully completed portions) following the next general election.

FURTHERMORE, nothing in this bill shall be construed as an ex post facto attempt to criminalize any associated behavior performed in any ministerial duties of the past, nor shall any such behavior be grounds for prosecution.

Ureu q'estadra så,
Mic'haglh Autófil (MC - URL)

WHY is there deletion of the user account?!  That is very unfriendly and not conducive for reapplication.  Say instead "Wittenberg access shall be restricted to the level of access permitted other non-citizens (Landing Pier, etc.)"

Quote from: Joseph Morris on October 21, 2025, 08:17:28 PMDang! I didn't know we had all this history! Now, for our next act: take over the Milwaukee city council and gain control of our territory!

Yeah, no.  Trust me, as someone who resides here, y'all do not want the responsibilities (and baggage) that would go with that.

1. URL

2. N/A

3.  ÜC/Yes on referendum.

4.  ÜC/Yes on SG seat.

That doesn't change my point, the quote still doesn't provide the full context or shape of this foundational event, and you've zeroed in on the reaction because it supports your thesis.  It remains a one-sided and incomplete quote.  Like I said, we need to rewind a little bit further, to look at what KDN said to her to provoke that reaction -- because he was provacative, and not always in a good way back then.  Which Ben may not have committed to paper.

And as for the other thing, Ben's alleged "patterns"...from my perspective, everything he did was for the preservation of the Regipats.  Remember he wasn't just the Leader, he was the Creator.  The stakes were personal for him.  He felt -- rightly -- that he should at the very least have some say in the direction of the polity.  And whatever others said of him, from where I was sitting, his methods actually seemed to work.  Until he loosened his grip, that being what people said he should do, and consecutive waves of people with ambitions swept in and tried to take over, Fritz's coterie being the last straw. 

He didn't have to grant as much constitutional freedom as he did.  He could have kept all power to himself, instead of letting others brainstorm, instead of relegating himself to being the ultimate veto. No pretense, no wiggle room, just "my way or the highway", like the (half tongue-in-cheek) Version 1.0 of the Constitzion.  "All power shall rest with the King; this document is perfect and shall never need amendment."  Fault him as much as you wish, but he didn't do that, he didn't keep it there.  He tried to share, and he got pushed out of his own creation.  Was he supposed to LIKE that?!

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on November 22, 2025, 09:23:16 PM

Quote from: Xheralt Del'Encradeir on November 22, 2025, 08:19:57 PMthe personal and deadly insult he'd offered to Ben's wife (and his nominal Queen, let's not forget!).

Is this the "personal and deadly insult" you're referring to?

Quote("You don't tell me what to do in my own
house," my wife said. "Well, they're going to lose anyway," Grubi replied
with a snarl. What an asshole!)

Or did KDN say something much, much worse that I'm not aware of?

Quotesomehow he's been villified for it

You're talking about KDN's "patterns of behaviour", so I assume you must know something about King Robert I's "patterns of behaviour" which go *far* beyond his feud with KDN. Believe me, he isn't "vilified' for that alone.

As I said, I didn't hear the actual exchange of words, being busy elsewhere as host of the event.  I'm fairly sure you weren't there either, to hear the words as they were spoken.  If you're basing this solely on KDN's recounting, well, it's probably just as biased as Ben's recollection.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 

You're focusing on the reaction to what he said, not what he said to provoke it.  This is a phenomenon every bullied child (myself among that number) knows all too well.  I'd be more interested to learn what KDN said to her that prompted that reaction from her, that was probably the REAL insult.

At the VERY least KDN was presumptuous in the extreme.  As >I< was the literal host, the only "house" she could have been referring to would have be the Regipats itself, and what he sid bearing on that, and preemptory.

One thing any historical re-enactor (SCA, RenFair, etc,) learns is proper deference to nobles and royalty, to say Milord, Milady, Your Highness, etc., even when you are proposing that they should be cut up as fish-bait.  Even that minimal consideration seemed to be missing.

But there is no reason to leave this as heresay.  While I've been reluctant to open old wounds, I can to to a primary source -- Ben & Amy themselves.  Ben may have mytholized it, the way he mytholized the Cone War, but her take would be invaluable.

Quote from: GV on November 02, 2025, 09:18:45 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC on October 21, 2025, 08:19:37 PM

Quote from: Joseph Morris on October 21, 2025, 08:17:28 PMDang! I didn't know we had all this history!

I suggest this as beginning reading material

It was on about 23 March 2004 Ben Madison began falsely accusing Kane Dal Nava on Wittenberg of domestic abuse. 

This is the most important event in Talossan history since the start of the Cybercit Era and is left out of the page Miestra links here. 

Let's clarify something -- Kane Dal Nava was not accused of any specific legally actionable act of abuse against women within Talossa, save for the act of verbally insulting Queen Amy.  Which would be enough to get one expelled from real-world Kingdoms at the very least.  This occurred at a Talossan Independance Day celebration I hosted.  Being busy as host, I did not personally witness this event, but even before it happened I was getting vibes from KDN I didn't like, sort of the classic misogynist-jock mentality I'd seen so often in high school.  Something about how Queen Amy was insulted triggered suspicions in Ben's mind.

The Organic Law contains few provisions for removal of "bad" citizens, mostly out of fear they would be weaponized over petty disputes; as there was no Talossan (or American) law that would cover it, Ben, desperate to get that man out of his "baby", his creation, improvised.  Following up on his suspicions, researching it via public records, Ben found proof.  There was a history of such abuse, arrests, restraining orders, etc.  I don't think any formal criminal charges or incarceration resulted, Ben certainly would have said so if there had been, but the pattern was clear enough to him.  Innocent until proven guilty and all that, but the records don't lie and the pattern was there, and it had played out in real time. 

KDN was accused not of any specific crime, but of being an abuser and therefore lacking moral fitness to be a leader in Ben's Talossa, in addition to the personal and deadly insult he'd offered to Ben's wife (and his nominal Queen, let's not forget!).

Was Ben supposed to LIKE what had been said and done?  He did what any loving and faithful husband would do, tried to protect his family (which included Talossans, remember almost all of us were friends IRL, "Old Growthers" at that time) and somehow he's been villified for it, while the real catalyst, the one who denigrated a man's wife in front of him, is lionized.  That's never sat well with me.

I was personally one of the people whose accounts was summarily deleted during The Great Theft for the "crime" of being on Ben's side.  As one affected directly, yes, I regard it as such.  I've forgiven the webmaster for his role in that, had intermittent contact with him.  Now, decades have gone by, and maybe things have changed.  Having had zero contact with that man in the intervening decades (being in "the other" Talossa) I have no idea of he's improved himself or not.  I earnestly hope so.  I don't hate him, but I will never like him, and will not let his part, his responsibility, for the events of that Dec 26 so many decades ago be glossed over.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on July 08, 2025, 10:50:23 PMI think that was a phase of Ian von M's?

It most definitely was.  Until he made a journey of self-discovery and realized that a hypothetical 4th reich wouldn't exactly want to keep him around.  Would that the minorities who voted MAGA figured out likewise!

I missed the Talossanization of most of the Old Growther names, no wonder I got them mixed up.  "Back in my day" it was all real (government) names only...

I had a bit of a medical (cardiac) scare a couple of months ago, I was hospitalized for a week, but am very much on the mend now, and the offer remains open.  Just haven't been to active with anything.

I have a smattering of old Talossan documents in my Google Drive.  Three issues of TNN, Ben's post about pagans, the '97 OrgLaw, a few stray chapters of Ar Pats, etc.  I'm a little reluctant to post the lattermost, because in the "Old Growthers are often too Talossan to have Talossan names" vein, real names are used.

Anything not quoted is agreed with or not contested at this time.

I first met Ben in the pre-Talossan era.  He and the others were all a year ahead of me in high school, and at this great remove I'm not sure if it was one or two years before.  I was a frequent houseguest; as a budding science fiction fan (even then), his Micronauts toy collection was huge, amazing to me.

Quote from: GV on July 08, 2025, 09:33:53 PM26 December 1979 to 25 November 1980: Era 1, ending with the Battle of the Garage

26 November 1980 to the day of Frederic Coriu's first visit in 1981(?) and ending at the end of 1982: The Expansionist Era.

It was not until 1983 Ian M. came on the Talossan scene...

I would consolidate all of this into a single "pre-Cheap Glory" era.  The Garage War ended my involvement with Talossa for a long while (for obvious reasons), but it did not change Talossa itself.

IM may not have been a Talossan, but being in the same school and same year, also participating in the same activities (Debate, Forensics, minitures wargaming -- especially WWII simulations, surprise surprise) he was certainly known to Ben, Wes E., Geoff T., and the aforementioned Dan & Bob.  Ián Anglatzara and I were in the Drama Club and Stage Crew; it's quite likely that was how he first got involved with Talossa.

Quote from: GV on July 08, 2025, 09:33:53 PMcertainly the most colorful (as Ben put it, "mostly red, white, and black").

Yep.

Quote from: GV on July 08, 2025, 09:33:53 PM1983 to Ben's re-coronation in 1988: The IM Era (for lack of a far-better name). 

[...] Davron was there.  Dan L. was there.  IM was there.  I'm pretty sure Cona was there, too. 

I was not.  My involvement with Talossa had ended with the Garage War, a year or more prior, and we were not friends at the moment.  Ben & company graduated from RHS in 1982, and I didn't see them again for years. Over a decade, in fact.

I happened to run into IM walking about a half mile from UWM.  We exchanged pleasantries, and he told me about the expansion of Talossa, the "Cheap Glory", which included my childhood home. 

I jokingly said, "How would you like it if somebody walked up and claimed your childhood home?!  I may have to go to war again!"

This apparently caused a bit of panic within Talossa.  But with communications reopened, I was able to reassure them than, no, I wasn't really angry, Ben & I buried the hatchet, and I (re)joined Talossa. 

The Talossa I returned to was very different from the Talossa of high school.  First and foremost, I must mention LOSS, the League of Separatist States, which Talossa founded.  Ben's (wild) idea was that of World Singular Secession, that everyone should have their own "their home is their castle" country.  IM had the Kaiserlich J_ Konigreich (sp?), Ián Anglatzara had the Kingdom of Thord, I had a measly bathtubbia, the Glib Room Empire that had evaporated even before the Garage War was settled (but I'd signed the peace treaty with Ben in its name), and a second attempt, the Confederacy of One (C/One) that went equally nowhere.  Other micronations joined in, and LOSS still exists out in the www somewhere AFAIK.

Somewhere in the decade-plus I was away, Ben decided that he didn't want to spend his energies playing diplomacy in a "Micronational United Nations", he wanted to devote his time to his Kingdom, and worked to persuade people to become Talossans.

Quote from: GV on July 08, 2025, 09:33:53 PM1997-1998: The next wave of Cybercits come to Talossa.  Not all of them buy into Ben's creative direction for Talossa and wish to do Talossa in somewhat their own way, while keeping well within the Talossan representative-democratic-monarchist structure and system.  The Uppermost Cort's vetoing the citizenship process for Miestra Schiva is infamous.

There have not been many Living Cosas.  I was present at two very significant ones.  One was where the so-called "Greek God Guy" had his application essentially rejected.  I'd tried to find a middle course, taking the standpoint of "You all have questions that weren't answered, let's put this on hold, ask your questions, and see what the answers are."  But, rejection on religious grounds is just that, and he [insulted and not wrong for feeling so] joined the penguin colony. To my shame, I didn't ask the more important question -- "Why is this guy's religion even being questioned?" I encountered him, years later, in another forum, and we made peace then.

Ben (newly Christian after being rabidly atheist in H.S.) had a very jaundiced view of paganism.  The handful he'd met (in and around UWMilw) were weirdos (even by the lights of other pagans!) and had really soured him on including any such in His Kingdom.  If he'd simply allowed himself to see the better examples, Talossa's history would be very different.

Quote from: GV on July 08, 2025, 09:33:53 PM1997 sees what I believe to be the first mass-exodus in Talossan history: Miestrâ and certain others, I think.  I don't have my notes in front of me, and this is before my time.

Penguineia.  I tend to think of it as The First Schism.  Of course, following this loss was a recruitment drive.  And like the folks who had just left, some of the newcomers didn't like everything about the Kingdom they'd just joined.

Quote from: GV on July 08, 2025, 09:33:53 PM1998 sees the second mass-exodus from Talossa: Dan Wardlow and others in dramatic fashion.  Dan burns his Talossan materials, and with them go much documentation of Talossa's earliest Cybercit past.

June 2001: the next mass-exodus - this time the third Liberal Party of Talossa.  Ián Anglatzara is among those who flee.

What led up to this?  The second significant Living Cosa I was involved in.  It was combined with 2000's Talossan Independence Day celebrations, wherein I provided the site (the elegant and professional rooming house I lived in) and hosted, the first one NOT held at the Ancestral Founding Site.  There are photos of me in my night security guard uniform.

I did not personally hear the insult that Ben said was given to Queen Amy, so I cannot comment on it.  Call it confirmation bias if you will, but from what I saw of the other party, in person, I found it all at least very plausible.  I didn't like the man's personality; accurate or not, my impression was "arrogant jock", and he was the antithesis of the introverted tabletop wargamers that the Talossa I knew had grown out of.  There's been a lot of water under the bridge since then, but that was my frank assessment back then.

"Truth is a three-edged sword", there's Ben's version, the other guy's version, and the truth -- which sits somewhere between the two.  But it absolutely consumed Ben.

Talossa's orientation towards expansion and encouraging activity now worked against it.  The only "crime" that could readily & instantly end a citizenship was that of not participating, of not voting in the Clarks.  There was no mechanism for removing bad citizens -- irrespective of whether the man genuinely qualified as that or not.

By the way, this was the origin of "pocket votes".  To prevent historical figures like Tony R., Florence, Jean W_ (another teacher of Ben's from high school), and so forth from being "administratively beheaded" (denaturalized), Ben would get their opinions and submit their votes for them.  Eventually, they said, "stop asking, whatever you want is fine."  Being his friends, and also knowing the people he was representing, this was eminently plausible, and we had no specific reason to distrust him.  That's fine for a tight-knit IRL community, not so much across the www.  Even though the Constituzion and the '97 OrgLaw that followed it essentially prohibited proxy voting, that's basically what this became.  Now enshrined as an honored tradition across all parties.  Of course, because he needed the bloc, he held these votes even after denaturalization for inactivity was relaxed and later ended. 

The only other way to boot a citizen out would be for something really heinous -- the insult, whatever it was, didn't rise to a legally actionable level -- that would be adjudicated in long and drawn-out Uppermost Cort proceedings.  With Ben's personal ire in full flower, and no Talossan crime committed (although, for example, if a Brit did something like call Queen Victoria a "fat ugly cow" to her face, I'm sure it would have been considered a crime somehow in that kingdom) the Talossan system could offer him no relief. 

Yes, Ben went real-world, and because what he found using publicly accessible (for a fee) records had some bearing on the fractious interaction with the Queen, he tried to use it as leverage.  Nowadays it would be called doxxing; the word hadn't been coined yet, back then.  Again, I found the discoveries plausible, and didn't hold Ben's usage of such against him. Others did.

There were those who simply cleaved to the martyred "jock".  There were those, like the late J. Eiffler, who recognized that Ben's actions amounted to an end run around his authority as Chief Justice of the Uppermost Cort, and repudiated Ben as well.  These were the founders of the Republic, from the perspective of those who didn't join the exodus, like me. 

With control of all web assets in Republic hands, royalist supporters like myself were unceremoniously deleted from the Wittenberg of the time, and the websites.  It angered me greatly at the time, but that is also water under the bridge, and I have had some wonderful conversations with M-P over the phone since.

The wake of this was how I became the first nominally Opposition (I was voting ZPT) PM...because I'd stood by my friend, Ben.  I made a pretty inauguration speech, but didn't get much accomplished after that; I was promptly replaced in the next election.

This post is getting long enough.  I'll offer my perspective on what led up to Ben's Final Abdication in another missive.

And of course all the contact info was changed so I can't reclaim it.  I've created a new account, DM me for details if desired.  Disregard and distrust anything that comes out of the old one!

Once upon a time, it was a hallmark of Talossans to WANT to meet live.  As someone who participated in -- if not actually hosted -- Live Cosas, I also feel this is a crucial ingredient.

Of course, meeting live and discovering how discordant someone is in person can ALSO lead to ongoing (and permanent) problems.  Ask me how I know.