Ceadfă del Ziu: Restoration of National Honour

[Mximo Malt]

I just want to circle back on this bit:

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

And how, Madame Schivă, do you suppose he knows that?

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

And you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal

I would like the Seneschal and the Minister of Culture, as the political authorities under which the Bureu del Glheþ and the Ladintsch Naziunal are established, to officially disapprove of this attack on the LN. Marcel is qualified to this post for being the most fluent Ladintsch and effective promoter of the language. Not because of his attitude to the man who invented it.

[Mximo Malt]

If you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

He wanted me to, can you blame me? I think not.

[King Txec]

If you somehow believe that my stance on Ben as a person makes me unqualified to be Ladintsch Naziunal, say it publicly.

He wanted me to, can you blame me? I think not.

You are being rude when it is not called for. You've been here a short time and need to learn some humility. Now, S:reu Malt, I am king here and as the king, I'm asking you to stop insulting people and think before you say hasty things that do not help your cause.

-Txec R

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

In case it can possibly need to be said still, I have every confidence in Tafial as a guide to our language. I do not think his competence is in question, no matter his attitude towards our founder.

Time and time again, when I have needed help with the language, he has been there. This ranges from a full set of assistance with translations when I served as regent to multifaceted and complex assistance with proofreading and ideas on our recent language lessons.

I just fought tooth and nail to ensure he would also be elected Tuischach, even though we are generally associated with different political parties, so my general confidence in his judgment cannot also be in doubt.

[Françal I. Lux]

I also fully support S:reu Tafial, not just as a member of government, but as a citizen of this nation. It is without question that he is currently the kingdom's premier language expert and has demonstrated time and time again his commitment to our linguistic heritage as Talossans.

These sorts of attacks are not productive *especially* when the goal is to convince the majority of the Ziu (let alone the whole citizenry of Talossa) to support a highly divisive resolution.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

[Mximo Malt]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

[Mximo Malt]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

I think my statement applies generally as well as to the specific case concerning Marcel, Mximo.

[Mximo Malt]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

I think my statement applies generally as well as to the specific case concerning Marcel, Mximo.

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I JUST SAID, GOOD LORD HAVE MERCY! 🤦

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

@Mximo Malt The changes you have made in response to the stated concerns are helpful. I would note you currently have co-sponsors across three parties including one from the governing party and this is also good as something of this import should be a multipartisan effort. I remain supportive of your effort here and hope that both sides of this divide will work toward reconciliation.

Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. Majestas' response to my attack on our National Latinish really made me consider what I'm really fighting for here. I now regret ever saying anything harsh against him and vow never to do this again.

Tafi (if I'm even allowed to call you that anymore), I'm willing to do anything to gain your forgiveness. All I can say is that I'm sorry. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.

I might as well just shut the hell up now before I cause even more irreparable damage to my reputation.

MM

I think committing to refraining from personal attacks in the future would be helpful. Probably not a good approach generally and certainly won't increase support of this bill specifically.

BT, this isn't only towards S:reu Tafial. This is towards everyone I have caused harm, including myself and Sua Majestas.

I think my statement applies generally as well as to the specific case concerning Marcel, Mximo.

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT I JUST SAID, GOOD LORD HAVE MERCY! 🤦

Lol, I ask for mercy from God every night before sleep. Ok, I understand now.

[Xheralt Del’Encradeir]

Given that Talossa's transgender community is now large and prominent in public life, perhaps someone should ask Ben Madison whether he still holds to the absolute contempt he expressed for that community in previous decades.

I will ask.  Because I have enough IRL trans friends via sci-fi fandom to be concerned by that as well.

To be fair, knowing who the first trans person he was ever exposed to was, back in the formative 1980's, one of the weird-even-by-other-pagan's-estimation pagans around the university, I can see why he would be initially repulsed and never want to deal with that realm again.  First impressions carry a lot of weight. 

To understand said (now deceased, I've heard) pagan's unhealthy life focuses, I can tell you that s/he was an ardent fan of Jacqueline Lictenberg, Jean Lorrah, and disgraced author Marion Zimmer Bradley.  That's the first impression a trans person has to overcome, interacting with Ben.

[Xheralt Del’Encradeir]

I just want to circle back on this bit:

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

[Mximo Malt]

I just want to circle back on this bit:

His concern of course is to not be subjected to an overtly hostile environment, there being easily a half dozen Quator Astor citizens still at least semi-active here who despise him viscerally; his impression from his last attempt at reconciliation was that those people were still "in charge" and absolutely blacklisting him. 

"Quator Astor" is a misspelling of "Qator Itrìns", Talossan for "Four Stars", i.e. the flag of the Talossan Republic. When Ben last tried to come back, the Seneschal was in fact a former Talossan Republican, i.e. me. I was not convinced he had changed in any way that would mean I could be safe in a political community with him, and I'm still not.

So am I to take from this that Ben wants to come back now because his former political enemies were out of power and he thinks they're no longer a threat to his plans for Talossa? That's a hint on how to take seriously the question of whether there would be any "forgiveness" or "bygones being bygones".

First off, my knowledge of ghelp is pretty minimal.  I remember it as astor, maybe there was a newsletter that went by that name or something?  In any case, my bad.  Recall that I had no direct access to things Republican.

Next off, your bias is really showing here, in that you PRESUME he has nefarious "plans", and you are putting the worst possible spin on him simply not wanting to walk into an unremittingly hostile environment!  As it was back then!  Who would want to do that?  Some hostility, given the polarization around his very existence, is expected.  Occasional landmines can be defused; clearing an entire field might be too much of an ask. 

Heck, I'm surprised I've caught as little flak as I have, in returning.  I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected. By perhaps the same administration?  But I'm here now, so that can be (and is) forgiven.

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

What are you afraid of?

Furthermore, ambition requires energy, something that becomes scarcer for someone in their sixties, as he and I are!

PREACH, BROTHER!

[Xheralt Del’Encradeir]

And you know what? You are NOT fit to be Ladintsch Naziunal if you are not interested in the history of the language. Promoting its use is one thing, but the history of the language is one of the most important aspects of it. There, I said it.

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

Bear in mind, at the same time, the Kingdom's webmaster was refusing to release ownership of any web assets to Ben (even when redundant, dotcom versus dotorg) unless he was paid web developer wages for all of the "work" he'd previously volunteered in service for the Kingdom.  There was a LOT of "tit for tat" going on, and at this remove who started it doesn't really matter.  Just realize it was NOT one-sided.  It was never one-sided.

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source):

The language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source):

If things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult to read though these threads and not get that impression.

[Xheralt Del’Encradeir]

I am interested in its history. That's why I have been, among other things, researching Archaic Talossan as it was first created by Ben in December 1980. What you're doing has nothing to do with its history, and how dare you make these sweeping statements when you don't know the first thing about it?

Instead of Ben, who only ever saw the language he created as a marketing ploy to get nerds to join his kingdom, I would love to see the return of the second person ever to speak Talossan, and the first person to truly love it: Sir Tomás Gariçeir.

Well, looks like we're both in a pickle now, eh?

I have no idea what you mean by "pickle". Sir Tomás has always been well respected for his services to the language.

"Marketing ploy?"  You really do misunderstand him.  He loved languages, period.  He studied Russian, Icelandic, various others -- some of the ghelp's odder elements were retained from its Icelandic influence and inspiration, before the Berber mythology got folded in.  Asserting copyright was NEVER about the money, it was real-world efforts to recover control of "Talossa", something he could point to and say "I created this and deserve to be compensated for my work", as would any published creator.  This move of course ultimately failed.

I never said it was about money. I'm refering to this statement (source):

The language was created to promote Talossa [...]. That is what the language exists for.

, which does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I would hope that el Glheþ is more than merely a promotional vehicle for Talossa.

Evidently, I'm not the only one who read it like that (source):

If things have degenerated so much that the Talossan language now exists "only to promote Talossa", then for Heaven's sake, somebody let me know and I will not waste another second working on it. The day that our venerable, beautiful, noble language becomes nothing more than a mere marketing tool to attract new members for our little club, whose use is restricted to the tiny handful of human beings in the world who are members of our little club and have received "authorisation", is the day I pack my bags and join the Republic.

I understand that you were there when it happened, so it's a bit silly for me to quote 20 year old forum posts at you, but in retrospect it's difficult not to read though these things and not get that impression.

20 Year old posts I had no access to, at that, {shrug}.

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.