Peculiarism vs Derivatism 2023 Epic Thread

Started by Bråneu Excelsio, UrN, July 24, 2023, 07:24:37 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Bråneu Excelsio, UrN


I sometimes read old threads and have seen many people adding to the discussion, Peculiarism vs Derivatism.

A philosophical discussion.

A REAL Talossan Philosophical Throwdown with Epic Facts and Logic.

Quote...a ruling by the Cort Pü Inalt that held that Talossa was "inherently derivativist." At this time, all political parties are either explicitly derivativist or else neutral.

What in the world does "neutral" means?

Explain that to me as if I were a child, ChatGPT fellow philosophical discussants.

Show me your facts and logics, I'm eager to learn, please thank you.




Minister of Defence. COFFEE founder.

Breneir Tzaracomprada

As the leader of a peculiarist party (New Peculiar Way), I am surprised you have not gotten into this discussion, @Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu

This also seems like a great topic for an episode of The Dialogue.


Big Bopper, at your service.
"Clearly we're not ostracizing this guy hard enough." -Miestra Schiva
"I refuse to work with you on this or any matter in Talossa." -Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir

Sir Ian Plätschisch

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 28, 2023, 08:19:05 PMThis also seems like a great topic for an episode of The Dialogue.


Such a great topic, in fact, that we discussed it on Episode 1!
Sir Ian Plätschisch, UrN, GST

Breneir Tzaracomprada

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on July 28, 2023, 08:23:49 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 28, 2023, 08:19:05 PMThis also seems like a great topic for an episode of The Dialogue.


Such a great topic, in fact, that we discussed it on Episode 1!

Good God, how could I have forgotten that?! Forgive me, it's been a long few months...
But still ESB, I am definitely interested in your thoughts.

Big Bopper, at your service.
"Clearly we're not ostracizing this guy hard enough." -Miestra Schiva
"I refuse to work with you on this or any matter in Talossa." -Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir

esbornatfiglheu

If I have been quiet on this, it is for a few reasons. 

1.)  I don't really feel that there is much left to say on the discussion.  Talossa decided it was deritavist a while ago (for good or ill) and there it stands.  Though I have my thoughts, I'm not sure that screaming into a void is healthy for anyone involved.

2.)  In the reddit-debate-without-karma that is Talossa, I don't really want to wade into a vicious firefight with a target painted on my back.  I've had people whom I consider both friends and allies on other issues attack me personally in vicious terms over this debate.  In my Talossan career I've been called a misogynist, anti-patriotic, and homophobic in the course of derivavist/peculiarist debates.  I don't really want more of this energy in my life.

3.)  Look at party membership breakdowns.  Peculiarism, as an ideology, cannot even swing enough active people to field a Cosa delegation.  An ideology of one is difficult to differentiate from psychosis.

3.)  In my professional life, I have been single-handedly steering an entire university theatre department for the past several years.  Between the pandemic cratering the art form I dedicated my life to teaching, and the amount of focus and work required to rebuild the department and defend my job, I don't have a lot of bandwidth for other things.

4.)  Frankly, and personally, I feel no real, human connection to Talossa at this point.  I hear from people when they need something legislatively.  I hear from the SoS.  The system is propagating itself at this point without my interference.  There is an inherent meanness I've experienced in a lot of Talossanity.  So again, what is there to say?

Too much self-seriousness, acting as if lives and livelihoods sat on the line, strong derivationism ignores so much of the needs and opportunities of small-group dynamics.  In some ways, Talossa functions more along the lines of a civic organization than one of our macronational brethren.  Not acknowledging that cheapens and runs aground in the land of Larp.

One thing to keep in mind, for example, is that "Talossa is never more active and stimulating than when it is debating the nature of its very existence."  An understanding of wanting to keep such a group active and functioning might change one's decision-making in terms of responsible governance."

Breneir Tzaracomprada

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PMIf I have been quiet on this, it is for a few reasons. 

1.)  I don't really feel that there is much left to say on the discussion.  Talossa decided it was deritavist a while ago (for good or ill) and there it stands.  Though I have my thoughts, I'm not sure that screaming into a void is healthy for anyone involved.

2.)  In the reddit-debate-without-karma that is Talossa, I don't really want to wade into a vicious firefight with a target painted on my back.  I've had people whom I consider both friends and allies on other issues attack me personally in vicious terms over this debate.  In my Talossan career I've been called a misogynist, anti-patriotic, and homophobic in the course of derivavist/peculiarist debates.  I don't really want more of this energy in my life.

3.)  Look at party membership breakdowns.  Peculiarism, as an ideology, cannot even swing enough active people to field a Cosa delegation.  An ideology of one is difficult to differentiate from psychosis.

3.)  In my professional life, I have been single-handedly steering an entire university theatre department for the past several years.  Between the pandemic cratering the art form I dedicated my life to teaching, and the amount of focus and work required to rebuild the department and defend my job, I don't have a lot of bandwidth for other things.

4.)  Frankly, and personally, I feel no real, human connection to Talossa at this point.  I hear from people when they need something legislatively.  I hear from the SoS.  The system is propagating itself at this point without my interference.  There is an inherent meanness I've experienced in a lot of Talossanity.  So again, what is there to say?

Too much self-seriousness, acting as if lives and livelihoods sat on the line, strong derivationism ignores so much of the needs and opportunities of small-group dynamics.  In some ways, Talossa functions more along the lines of a civic organization than one of our macronational brethren.  Not acknowledging that cheapens and runs aground in the land of Larp.

One thing to keep in mind, for example, is that "Talossa is never more active and stimulating than when it is debating the nature of its very existence."  An understanding of wanting to keep such a group active and functioning might change one's decision-making in terms of responsible governance."

ESB, you've packed a great deal worth considering in this statement. Thank you. I appreciate you giving a window into how your non-Talossan professional life impacts your ability and desire to participate in Talossan affairs. I was not aware of the particular epithets thrown your way in past derivatist/peculiarist debates so can now understand your reticence to weigh in again. Nevertheless, this was a good contribution.

Big Bopper, at your service.
"Clearly we're not ostracizing this guy hard enough." -Miestra Schiva
"I refuse to work with you on this or any matter in Talossa." -Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir

Bråneu Excelsio, UrN

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PMIn my Talossan career I've been called a misogynist, anti-patriotic, and homophobic in the course of derivavist/peculiarist debates.  I don't really want more of this energy in my life.

What, how? Why?

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PMThere is an inherent meanness I've experienced in a lot of Talossanity.  So again, what is there to say?

What is a peculiarist approach to modern day Talossa?
I think I understand that "all parties are inherently derivatist or neutral" but I want to understand what's a peculiarist approach to things?

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PM...strong derivationism ignores so much of the needs and opportunities of small-group dynamics.  In some ways, Talossa functions more along the lines of a civic organization than one of our macronational brethren.  Not acknowledging that cheapens and runs aground in the land of Larp.

Was it different before?

I feel this debate is ancient history and I'd like to hear more about it, that's all.

Minister of Defence. COFFEE founder.

Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC

Peculiarism's a minority viewpoint which just seems to have the crap kicked out of it in every single debate in Talossan history, so I don't blame Peculiarists for having "given up" and for not being enthusiastic about reviving the debate so they can get another kicking.

Bråneu can't be blamed for not understanding the historical context, but that's part of not having any proper Talossan history in the post-KR1 era.

¡LADINTSCHIÇETZ-VOI - rogetz-mhe cacsa!
"They proved me right, they proved me wrong, but they could never last this long"

esbornatfiglheu

Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 08, 2023, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PMIn my Talossan career I've been called a misogynist, anti-patriotic, and homophobic in the course of derivavist/peculiarist debates.  I don't really want more of this energy in my life.
What, how? Why?

The how & why are not really that difficult.  They are easy and popular things to accuse others of via the internet.  And so, personal insults started flying with regularity in such discussions.  Keep in mind that while, ostensibly, Talossa is not Wittenberg, something in the neighborhood of 97% of all Talossan business is conducted here.  Which means there's a strong whiff of internet forum culture already embedded in the discourse.  So "if you don't like it and want to destroy the nation, please leave" is an easy thing to throw at the other person.  Or "run back off to your sooper seekret boys club." Etc.  I've been in Talossan orbit (on and off) since 2005/2006 or so, and haven't really kept track of specifics.

Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 08, 2023, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PMThere is an inherent meanness I've experienced in a lot of Talossanity.  So again, what is there to say?
What is a peculiarist approach to modern day Talossa?
I think I understand that "all parties are inherently derivatist or neutral" but I want to understand what's a peculiarist approach to things?

I think we've got a strong whiff of "empty storefront" syndrome around here, honestly.  Lots of unfilled mandates and nonfunctioning (or barely functioning) structures.  Just look at Benito.  Elections were held and SOME of the seats in the legislature were assigned, but at this point there is NOBODY who really has any sort of authority to convene said legislature and try to get it to function.  It's been like this for at least 2 Cosa now.

In the early-20th century, when American fraternalism was at an all-time high, lots of of groups (Oddfellows, for one example, or DeMolay for another) developed these huge complex structures that necessitated lots and lots of members.  DeMolay chapters have something in the neighborhood  of 15 officers.  Since the shrink in fraternalism (and civic engagement more broadly, a la Bowling Alone), most chapters/lodges/councils cannot swing enough people to fill their needed chairs, and there is a long-in-the-tooth old guard who actively quashes reforms (less-so with the Oddfellows, who have gone cofraternal.  But that then raises questions about the survivability of the Rebekahs, which were the women's group.)

I think the assessment that every Talossan party exists on a Derivativist/Peculiarist axis is a correct assessment.  It's just that just about every extant party sits well on the "D" side of said spectrum.  And the NPW can't even swing a Cosa delegation at this point.  D/P is probably Talossa's oldest political debate, but for the grand majority of Talossan history, the D's have it.

Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 08, 2023, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on July 30, 2023, 06:05:30 PM...strong derivationism ignores so much of the needs and opportunities of small-group dynamics.  In some ways, Talossa functions more along the lines of a civic organization than one of our macronational brethren.  Not acknowledging that cheapens and runs aground in the land of Larp.
Was it different before?

I feel this debate is ancient history and I'd like to hear more about it, that's all.

When you ask "was it different before?"  I'd have to ask "before what?"  Before The Republic?  Before Reunison?  Before King Wulf?  Before the Internet?  Because each of those has marked a seismic shift in Talossanity.

And don't misunderstand.  Peculiarists themselves, even when managing to field a party, tend to have strong recalcitrant and individualist streaks.  The first Peculiarist government in the Republic was torn down when one member of the Cosa delegation jumped ship due to the Opposition offering him Ranked Choice Voting.  Steering a Peculiarist party is not like herding cats.  It's like herding fruit bats and water buffalo simultaneously.

King Txec

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on August 09, 2023, 09:42:53 AMSteering a Peculiarist party is not like herding cats.  It's like herding fruit bats and water buffalo simultaneously.

I seriously love this simile! It's kinda like teaching Middle School!
TXEC R, by the Grace of God, King of Talossa and of all its Realms and Regions, King of Cézembre, Sovereign Lord and Protector of Pengöpäts and the New Falklands, Defender of the Faith, Leader of the Armed Forces, Viceroy of Hoxha and Vicar of Atatürk
    

Bråneu Excelsio, UrN

I still don't get the peculiar approach to things other than they're the wildest type of people, which sounds nice, like the Chaotic Neutral alignment in DnD.

What was a peculiar take on micronations diplomacy, for example?

Or provincial traditions?

Minister of Defence. COFFEE founder.

esbornatfiglheu

Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 09, 2023, 01:42:57 PMI still don't get the peculiar approach to things other than they're the wildest type of people, which sounds nice, like the Chaotic Neutral alignment in DnD.

What was a peculiar take on micronations diplomacy, for example?

Or provincial traditions?

Honestly, Talossa's current diplomatic stance of not trading "recognitions" with other micronations willy njlly might be one of the most Peculiar things about it.  A simple visit to a place like r/micronations is an almost-continual recognition-fest.  We don't do diplomacy because... well... what is there to diplom?

Peculiarism is a broad umbrella, but at its most basic it is rooted in the following statement "Talossa is not like the other nations of the world, and therefor should not simply copy the systems and mores of our macronational brethren."  I for one feel that we could take lessons from successful civic organizations, or even experiment with social structures out of science fiction.

The most solid example of that last thing is the Provincial Justice system in Benito.  It's a form of 3rd party arbitration patterned after the judgeships as described in the Heinlein novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  It was passed into law and adopted, though I'm not 100% certain it has ever been used.

Audrada Roibeardet

Quote from: Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu on August 09, 2023, 03:15:20 PMPeculiarism is a broad umbrella, but at its most basic it is rooted in the following statement "Talossa is not like the other nations of the world, and therefor should not simply copy the systems and mores of our macronational brethren."

So that's my political viewpoint!

Generally, I wouldn't jump in to a political conversation (being as apolitical as I am) but I was really curious about this.

I know I was part of the NPW awhile ago (sorry for bailing) but I didn't really understand the distinction between the two schools of thought.