[FORA TALOSSA] 59th GE Party Debate

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Fora Talossa presents the 59th General Election Party Debate
FreeDems Seneschal candidate Miestra Schiva and TNC Seneschal candidate Braneu Excelsio debate pertinent issues as Talossans go to the ballot box in the Kingdom's 59th General Election

[mximo]

Everyone is wrong except me. Would be a good slogan for free democrats. Many of the founders of the republic during the schism took advantage of the largesse and pocket votes of Robert I, only to ultimately change sides once they lost their privilege and left Talossa. But for many years the Conservative Party, several members of which are founders of the Republic of Talossa, loved their monarch. The elders who talk to you about the past without ever having anything to reproach themselves for seem to forget their own role in history. That being said. Once again the citizens of Talossa have voted to maintain the monarchy. I would like to end with a few questions for both leader. A king or why not a queen? A monarch for life? Or a monarch elected for a 5-year term? A vote to choose the next monarch by all citizens in order to respond to the desire to have a unifying monarch? And do we need a monarch with a political veto?

Mximo

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Many of the founders of the republic during the schism took advantage of the largesse and pocket votes of Robert I, only to ultimately change sides once they lost their privilege and left Talossa.

Peut-être la partie de mon discours où je parlais à propos de la manque de confiance et problème de rancune dans ce pays aurait dû être traduite en français au profit de Maximo.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Or a monarch elected for a 5-year term?

Well, that's what the Free Democrats fought for for three Cosas in a row (it was actually a 7 year term we suggested), and the people who founded the TNC threw everything at it to defeat it, so clearly that's a non-starter. Là encore, je parlais dans mon discours à propos de la manque de contexte historique dans la politique talossaine contemporaine.

But still, it's really good to see the Senator-in-waiting for Florencia coming round to a good policy. I wonder whether the TNC Seneschal candidate would also be happy to consider a term-limited Monarchy, or even occasional votes of confidence?

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

La condescendance ne convient à aucune langue.

Or a monarch elected for a 5-year term?

Well, that's what the Free Democrats fought for for three Cosas in a row (it was actually a 7 year term we suggested), and the people who founded the TNC threw everything at it to defeat it, so clearly that's a non-starter. Là encore, je parlais dans mon discours à propos de la manque de contexte historique dans la politique talossaine contemporaine.

But still, it's really good to see the Senator-in-waiting for Florencia coming round to a good policy. I wonder whether the TNC Seneschal candidate would also be happy to consider a term-limited Monarchy, or even occasional votes of confidence?

It's not a monarchy if it's subject to regular partisan elections, even if we call the office-holder a "king."  It would essentially just be the Israeli system, or else any one of the other fifteen countries with presidents with seven-year terms.  Technically, it would still be a monarchy... but not in any meaningful way.  The word doesn't have any inherent meaning -- it's just a label.  The important part is his role.  You could call the dogcatcher a "king," but he'd still be swatting fleas.

The TNC is pretty fortunate that we have a wide span of opinion on this issue, though.  We're a party devoted to having fun and welcoming others, and we have refused to be defined by just one or two divisive issues.  I wish that the FreeDems would feel comfortable with that, instead of bending the truth to suggest that we support His Majesty simply choosing a successor.  Right now, my personal position is that His Majesty should be confined to nominating a successor, to be confirmed by direct plebiscite to the people.  The whole point of a monarchy is to try to avoid partisan politics, and that should continue to be the case, but the people confer all legitimacy.

So if we're going to have this debate, maybe let's try to keep it honest from now on, not misrepresent each other, and work to finding a path to a real solution that maintains the main virtues of a monarchy.  The label isn't the important thing -- it's the position outside of partisan election.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Quick question. Has any *national* referendum in Talossa - not counting the partial Fiova/Florencia merger referendum - been defeated in living memory?

The King could name a successor any time he wanted by submitting a bill to the Ziu amending the Organic Law to do so. And it would succeed if it got 2/3 of the Cosa, a majority of the Senäts, and a referendum. The TNC...

... sorry, I realise I do that too much. I say "the TNC" when it's only a certain number of TNC members - a minority, but an influential one. Well: that section of the TNC want to not go the existing route, because they want to nominate someone as Crown Prince who could never get 2/3 majority in the Cosa in a million years. Someone who stinks in the nostrils of one whole section of our political spectrum.

But to change that, they would still need 2/3 of the Cosa, a majority of the Senäts, and a referendum...

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

But let's hear from the TNC's Seneschal candidate, my friend Bråneu. What are his reactions to his party colleagues' suggestions of (a) a term-limited monarchy; (b) the succession to the throne determined by simple plebiscite?

[Bråneu Excelsio]

Azul, fuliensen talossans!
I will say again that personal opinions are not official party policy.

When the time comes to discuss our personal opinions in a purposeful constructive environment, I will be there leading the way, I hope.
I have not answered these questions yet because I am precisely trying to lead an impartial movement that can allow the opinions of others to be heard.
 Is that, being a candidate, counterintuitive? Pouçivalmint mas parç qe la voce da Talossa c'e la voce da toct I tzară. The voice of Talossa is the voice of everybody.


For today, I consider it important to emphasize that I'd rather not reduce the campaign to this issue, we at the TNC have great enthusiasm for creating and sharing fun things in addition to carrying out a clean, transparent and transcendental Cosa; we have the people, we have the energy and the will to lead a path to a stronger more united Talossa.

Bråneu.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Unfortunately, your opposition in this election is predicated precisely on this issue - and the question of what your party might do to our Organic Law if you get a "bulldozer" majority in the next Ziu. You said in our Friendly Chat that the future of the monarchy should be determined by a full, bottom-up debate. Well, unless the Free Democrats get *at least* 67 seats, the future of the monarchy will be decided by the TNC behind closed doors. So you see why this motivates us.

[Ian Plätschisch]

Azul, fuliensen talossans!
I will say again that personal opinions are not official party policy.

When the time comes to discuss our personal opinions in a purposeful constructive environment, I will be there leading the way, I hope.
I have not answered these questions yet because I am precisely trying to lead an impartial movement that can allow the opinions of others to be heard.
 Is that, being a candidate, counterintuitive? Pouçivalmint mas parç qe la voce da Talossa c'e la voce da toct I tzară. The voice of Talossa is the voice of everybody.


For today, I consider it important to emphasize that I'd rather not reduce the campaign to this issue, we at the TNC have great enthusiasm for creating and sharing fun things in addition to carrying out a clean, transparent and transcendental Cosa; we have the people, we have the energy and the will to lead a path to a stronger more united Talossa.

Bråneu.

As D:na Schivă says, I don't think that not addressing this issue is an option. Well, I guess it technically is an option because it is physically possible, but it is essentially telling the voters that you will not tell them how you will use the power you are asking them to give you.

It is, to be blunt, nonsensical to claim that a political party is "impartial". Being partial is literally what is means to be a party

I get that the TNC is trying to cast a wide net and would rather campaign on administrative ability instead of policy. However, surely you can understand why people would be interested in what your policies are, given that, depending on whether you win and how big the margin is, you may very well be in a position to enact the policies you want.

This is especially important because the TNC's last attempt at succession reform was unacceptable to many people. I am not sure if you were politically active at the time, so the thread may be an interesting read.

You and @Baron Alexandreu Davinescu are pretty much telling us not to worry our pretty little heads over what we consider to be the central and defining aspect of Talossan life. I'll give you a pass but the Baron should know better than to say things like:

We're a party devoted to having fun and welcoming others, and we have refused to be defined by just one or two divisive issues.  I wish that the FreeDems would feel comfortable with that

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

You and @Baron Alexandreu Davinescu are pretty much telling us not to worry our pretty little heads over what we consider to be the central and defining aspect of Talossan life. I'll give you a pass but the Baron should know better than to say things like:

We're a party devoted to having fun and welcoming others, and we have refused to be defined by just one or two divisive issues.  I wish that the FreeDems would feel comfortable with that

I'm pretty sure the Baron does know better. He just says things like this to troll and provoke.  That's how he does politics, and it's very effective, in that it infuriates people into giving up talking to him and he can then tell the less-informed that he "won".

But the Free Democrats, since we were founded, have been defined by the issue of being "Monarchy-skeptical". If the TNC were serious about putting the monarchy to bed as an issue in this election - and fighting it entirely on questions of administration, which would probably do better for them - they would meet us halfway and agree that if the King chooses a successor, it will be through the current OrgLaw amendment process. Oh, and also to back up their Maricopa Senäts candidate in saying that they will stop trying to meddle with the Chancery too.

[Bråneu Excelsio]

Yes, interesting read, I invite the rest of the citizens with interest on making a Compromise to read it as well.

The discussion that happened in September 2022 was absoutely refreshing to read. It was very good.
I liked to see the proposals of Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir, Ian Plätschisch, Miestră Schivă, UrN, Breneir Tzaracomprada on Baron Alexandreu Davinescu's bill. It's a bill that managed to improve with everyone's input. I really like the Conclave/Convention proposed by @Ian Plätschisch in another bill too. I feel like a general election to decide a King has a very presidential feeling, but a Conclave involved in the process is a different matter, although this is just personal opinion.

I noticed the moment the thread fractured was in March of this year, that's why I didn't put it in my summary.
Everything before that I think is a very good guide; concerns and proposals of every participant were taken into account.


Now for this summary of the thread, I put in red the red lines of everybody. I put the proposals in yellow and green for the things people are willing to concede to achieve a Compromise.

I think this is a very good guideline that I'd like us to pursue as a Nation .


EDIT: Link for high resolution: https://i.imgur.com/G5tDkRh.png

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

The yellow text is hard to read, lol! :D

Things have changed a bit since that discussion precisely because I realised - last week - that the King can simply name a successor using the current OrgLaw process. That means that there is now a *high* bar needed to persuade Free Democrats that any change is necessary.

I remember that in our Friendly Chat you raised the question of what would happen if a 2/3 Cosa majority could not be found for any successor. Well; what if a majority in referendum can't be found for any successor? This is only a problem if you think that Talossa really needs a King and not a Regency, which is something you'd have to persuade the Free Democrats of