[PASSED] The Vacant Throne (We Really Mean Business Now) Amendment

[þerxh Sant-Enogat]

Tonight I am processing the ID cards, but I think the language for a compromise bipartisan bill will be pretty easy to write up, and I bet I can get it done tomorrow. Fixing the convocation proposal will be the trickiest part. The SoS will probably need to be in charge, with a standard electoral commission for backup.

If I write it, someone will have to sponsor it. Hopefully someone will agree to do so on my behalf?

Why not.. Can you show us what this would be like ?

[Barclamïu da Miéletz]

Tonight I am processing the ID cards [...]

I'm waiting patiently!

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

We should establish an expectation and a norm in the law that His Majesty nominates someone, the Ziu approves it, and the people affirm it.

I have to reiterate the expressed position of the Free Democrats that Ziu approval must be OrgLaw-amendment threshold, i.e. 2/3 of the Cosa.

I also don't want to be in the position I have been over and over again in Talossa - where I express myself loosely and AD decides that I just agreed with him and bulldozes forward on that position. This is not a "compromise". This is an alternative.

Just to confirm: I want to write a bill where an Organic procedure is established for nominating a successor.  In this procedure, the monarch will nominate their successor, and that person will then receive supermajority Ziu confirmation (or not).  After and only after that approval is received, the nominee would be transmitted to the people for their confirmation through a majority referendum.  The same bill will also contain procedures for filling a vacant throne, and they will be similar to the basic idea of the convocation proposed by Breneir.  And finally -- painfully -- the bill will contain a sunset clause which automatically vacates the throne unless His Majesty has already had a nominee confirmed by the Ziu.

Obviously the Ziu could just do all of this at any time, but the procedure will be there as an expectation to be followed.  And presumably it would then be followed.

This is literally exactly what I just said a moment ago and what you agreed to.  Does that all sound okay?

I realize that this would be ceding some of the things you'd like to get.  The throne would never be empty, so the opportunity to keep it empty would be gone.  And that makes it harder to end the monarchy permanently.  This would also mean that your closest ally wouldn't directly become the king, as Breneir has been advocating.

Instead, this would be a consensus move that represents compromise for everyone in the name of helping our ailing country.  It would be a compromise on your part, since for right now you'd be setting aside your larger goal of ending the monarchy in the name of fixing the present situation.

If I write it, someone will have to sponsor it. Hopefully someone will agree to do so on my behalf?

Why not.. Can you show us what this would be like ?

Since Miestra guides the bulk of her party's votes, I'm not going to write it until there's a deal on the table with her.  But my reply to her, above, has the basic plan.  We need to get this situation fixed.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

We should establish an expectation and a norm in the law that His Majesty nominates someone, the Ziu approves it, and the people affirm it.

I have to reiterate the expressed position of the Free Democrats that Ziu approval must be OrgLaw-amendment threshold, i.e. 2/3 of the Cosa.

I also don't want to be in the position I have been over and over again in Talossa - where I express myself loosely and AD decides that I just agreed with him and bulldozes forward on that position. This is not a "compromise". This is an alternative.

Let me be very clear. If the King, or someone working for him, puts up a OrgLaw amendment establishing a timeline for his abdication and a process for succession in time for the 6th Clark, then I will hold off on my own bills for it to be voted on, on its merits (assuming that it is a bill solely dealing with these matters, with no tinkering to the role/powers of the Monarchy). If no such OrgLaw amendment is ready in time, then we proceed to a Vacant Throne or to a Ziu nomination.

Miestra, if the Baron is not able to produce his proposal soon then I recommend moving your proposals to the CRL. I would also be more than happy to be a co-sponsor on both.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

I think we have a path forward.

1) something I never thought about until today (reading up on the abdication of Edward VIII of the UK) that given the wording of OrgLaw II.3:

The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

the King can be deemed to have abdicated upon the passage of a bill saying that he has and getting the Royal Assent (or, not being vetoed at least). It's killing me that I didn't think of this long ago.

2) given that, the question of vacating the Throne can be left out of an OrgLaw amendment, and the succession procedure just being added to the existing II.3. The Abdication Bill wouldn't *have* to go on the same Clark as a Succession Amendment, but we'd have to have an indication that it would not be vetoed, whenever it passes.

Let me think about this.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act

BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosă and Senäts of Talossa in Ziu assembled that:

1. His Majesty John by the Grace of God, King of Talossa and of all its Realms and Regions, King of Cézembre, Sovereign Lord and Protector of Péngöpäts and the New Falklands, Defender of the Faith, Leader of the Armed Forces, Viceroy of Hoxha and Vicar of Atatürk, hereby declares his irrevocable intention to renounce the Throne.

2. Effect shall be given to this Declaration of Abdication three calendar months after the date of successful amendment of the Organic Law to provide for the appointment of an Heir to the throne.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

The Succession Amendment

BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosă and Senäts of Talossa in Ziu assembled that Article II.3 of the Organic Law, which currently reads:

The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

shall be amended to read as follows:

1.  The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.

2. The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive, to be approved by the Ziu and people by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

3. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.

4. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Heir Presumptive shall become King; but there is no Heir Presumptive, the Ziu may nominate a new King following the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

5. During any time that the throne is vacant and there is no Heir Presumptive, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency in accordance with law.

(NOTE that this does not provide for a Convocation. The details of such a procedure are far too complicated to discuss properly before we need to Clark and vote on this. But suffice it to say that the next Ziu may decide, by majority vote, to establish such a Convocation for filling further vacancies - perhaps a party could run in the next election on that.)

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

I have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

It's copy-pasted from the bill that ratified the abdication of Edward VIII of the UK. There is no law or Organic provision governing the manner and form of abdications. So I figured this manner/form would be as good as any other, and in the precedent of a respected constitutional monarchy, and wouldn't require "Organically decapitating" the incumbent.

Any comment on whether the other thing, the Succession Amendment, is good enough?

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

The Succession Amendment

BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosă and Senäts of Talossa in Ziu assembled that Article II.3 of the Organic Law, which currently reads:

The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

shall be amended to read as follows:

1.  The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.

2. The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive, to be approved by the Ziu and people by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

3. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.

4. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Heir Presumptive shall become King; but there is no Heir Presumptive, the Ziu may nominate a new King following the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

5. During any time that the throne is vacant and there is no Heir Presumptive, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency in accordance with law.

Alternative Section 4:

4. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Heir Presumptive shall become King.

Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, a Convocation of Succession shall be called and chaired by the Senior Judge of the Uppermost Cort, or in their absence the next available Judge in order of seniority, by publicly submitting to the Secretary of State a message to all eligible electors announcing the Convocation and providing instructions on how and when to register to participate. Upon receiving the message, the Secretary of State shall be responsible for communicating the message to all eligible electors. The Convocation shall commence fourteen days from the moment the Secretary of State sends the message to the electors.

Any Talossan shall who became a citizen no less than seven years before the date when the Judge submits the message to the Secretary of State shall be eligible to be an elector in the Convocation, but only those who register with the Judge before the Convocation commences shall be electors.

All discussions of the Convocation shall be open, but its votes shall be by secret ballot. The votes of every elector shall have equal weight. All other operations of the Convocation shall be decided by the Convocation or prescribed by statute.

At this meeting of the Convocation, an Heir Presumptive to the Throne of Talossa shall be chosen by the expressed support of 2/3 of the Convocation, and submitted to the Ziu and people for ratification by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I have to admit that I don't really understand the point of this legislation? The legislature can amend the Orglaw and submit the amendment for ratification by the people, or can depose the king by a similarly high standard of passage for certain specified causes, but this appears to just be an ephemeral bill to depose the king?

If the king wishes to abdicate, he doesn't need this legislation. If he does not wish to abdicate, this probably would need to be phrased differently.

It's copy-pasted from the bill that ratified the abdication of Edward VIII of the UK. There is no law or Organic provision governing the manner and form of abdications. So I figured this manner/form would be as good as any other, and in the precedent of a respected constitutional monarchy, and wouldn't require "Organically decapitating" the incumbent.

Any comment on whether the other thing, the Succession Amendment, is good enough?

I would assume we would stick with our own tradition, where the sovereign affirms their intentions under a declaration like any other they would make above their signature. But really it's up to the king, so I guess it doesn't matter.

The other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

The other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

Just posted my own version with the Convocation provisions cut-and-pasted from Brenéir's/Ian P.'s proposal. Can you tell me - because I think you're in a position to know - will this get at least 3 TNC MCs in favour of it?

I should also note the Abdication bill is "post-dated", to allow both the Succession Amendment to pass and His Maj to actually nominate his successor, should he choose to do so. Does that sound good?

 

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

The other thing is a really good start, but I do think it would be really preferable to include the convocation thing as well. I'm ready to write up a version of it to hash out the details, presuming you're okay with the basic concept. I don't think it should take that long.

Just posted my own version with the Convocation provisions cut-and-pasted from Brenéir's/Ian P.'s proposal. Can you tell me - because I think you're in a position to know - will this get at least 3 TNC MCs in favour of it?

I should also note the Abdication bill is "post-dated", to allow both the Succession Amendment to pass and His Maj to actually nominate his successor, should he choose to do so. Does that sound good?

At a basic level, maybe? We do still need to fix some of the fine details to make it work. I notice that you seem to be trying to steer me away from writing any of the actual text of the bill. Would you prefer to do it yourself, and I can just tell you the problems with the text as it stands? Or would you prefer I write a modified draft of what you have proposed?

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

We do still need to fix some of the fine details to make it work. I notice that you seem to be trying to steer me away from writing any of the actual text of the bill. Would you prefer to do it yourself, and I can just tell you the problems with the text as it stands? Or would you prefer I write a modified draft of what you have proposed?

With respect, while I've been trying to take all your ideas into consideration, the goal has always been to get at least 3 TNC MCs to support *anything* that would do the job. I think I've made a significant error in the last few days, and that's that I've been rapidly rewriting my proposal to cover your objections/suggestions, but not making reference to what the people with an actual vote want!

Despite our ongoing differences, Brenéir has been happy with whatever I've put up, and M. Yasir has apparently been nodding in the background as well. Dama Litz isn't talking, so I've been trying to find something that could get @þerxh Sant-Enogat or @Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat (preferably both) on board. Originally they both supported the "clean decapitation" with some caveats; since then they've flipped to insisting the King name his successor, apparently swung by your arguments. That's the last I heard from them.

I've been asking them in PMs but no response for days, so I think we need to make this public. Þerxh and Carlüs, do you support my draft legislation as it stands, including all the suggestions that AD has made? Or do you prefer an earlier phase of suggestions? Or - possibly - is it just that you require AD to write the final draft?

(ETA: Carlüs has responded in PM, thanks very much!)

In any case, there remains 3 days before this can go to the CRL so anyone can suggest further amendments, but if at least 3 TNC MCs won't back it we're wasting our time.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

BTW, I note that @King John made a rare personal appearance on Wittenberg today. He could save us a lavish of time by either confirming his intention to abdicate or confirming his intention not to do so, which would allow us more certainty in what to do next.