King/Queen by seniority?

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

Here's a possible solution to the whole monarchy mess.

Have whoever became citizen (of Kingdom or Republic) first be the King/Queen.

First time we do this: offer the position to the most senior citizen (in this case Gjermund). If they say no or don't respond within a week or are no longer a citizen, move on to the next one, until someone accepts.

Next time the King/Queen retires or is removed, go with the next one on the list. Only if we get to the bottom of the list and nobody accepts we start at the top again.

If it takes many weeks before somebody accepts we can still have a regency in the meantime.



Advantages:

- The monarch isnt selected by the hype of the day.
- We don't need a big partisan war every time the King is absent because the procedure is just set
- There's no point in campaigning to be King and there's no point in becoming a citizen for that reason cause you won't last that long.
- We always get a King who's experienced, knows Talossan culture and has a track record of sticking around
- Monarchists might like that there is a set order of succession
- Republicans might like that it's non-hereditary, you need to have at least achieved something to become King and it might be easier to remove the monarch for inactivity if there is a replacement procedure

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

Here's a possible solution to the whole monarchy mess.

Have whoever became citizen (of Kingdom or Republic) first be the King/Queen.

First time we do this: offer the position to the most senior citizen (in this case Gjermund). If they say no or don't respond within a week or are no longer a citizen, move on to the next one, until someone accepts.

Next time the King/Queen retires or is removed, go with the next one on the list. Only if we get to the bottom of the list and nobody accepts we start at the top again.

If it takes many weeks before somebody accepts we can still have a regency in the meantime.



Advantages:

- The monarch isnt selected by the hype of the day.
- We don't need a big partisan war every time the King is absent because the procedure is just set
- There's no point in campaigning to be King and there's no point in becoming a citizen for that reason cause you won't last that long.
- We always get a King who's experienced, knows Talossan culture and has a track record of sticking around
- Monarchists might like that there is a set order of succession
- Republicans might like that it's non-hereditary, you need to have at least achieved something to become King and it might be easier to remove the monarch for inactivity if there is a replacement procedure

I like it.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Let's look at the actual figures. The succession to the throne would be:

1) Gjermund Higraff.
2) Mximo Carbonel.
3) Ieremiac'h Ventrutx.

I like Gjermund but he's less active than John. As for the others........

Not happening.

[Istefan Perþonest]

The first complication that crosses my mind is that on the early part of the list of current citizens, you have people from the era when citizenship was granted by legislative act, which you have a bunch of people who have identical first dates of citizenship because they were all on the same Clark. After Gjermund Higraff you have a two-way tie, immediately after that you have a three-way tie, and then there's another two-way tie.

Second, if it's by first date of citizenship, there's still a version of the "become citizen to become king" and "experienced, knows Talossan culture and has a track record of sticking around" issues -- someone whose citizenship lapsed long ago and re-citizenships.

These issues can even combine -- there were five other people who became citizens on the same Clark as Gjermund Higraff. If one (or more!) of them show up next week, theoretically you've got a tie for head of the line.

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

Let's look at the actual figures. The succession to the throne would be:

1) Gjermund Higraff.
2) Mximo Carbonel.
3) Ieremiac'h Ventrutx.

I like Gjermund but he's less active than John. As for the others........

Not happening.

Well I was kinda trying to do the 'veil of ignorance / how would you design society if you dont know your place in it' thing here.

I'd say if the monarch isn't selected based on the personal preferences of the 5-10 most politically active citizens that might be a feature more than a bug.



That said, why?

- I don't think Gjermund is less active than John, who hasn't been spotted on witt this year so far. (And personally I dont think the King needs to be super active all the time. They must just be here in times of need, give an occasional inspiring speech, and be around enough to make appointments, potentially veto bills etc)

- Mximo I know is somewhat controversial, but he is on average about equally controversial on both sides of the political spectrum, depending on what year we live in, which might make him a good compromise candidate. And he's managed to stick around for a long time and become part of our history despite receiving quite a lot of pushback. Id be down for King Mximo. We'd certainly be in for interesting times.

- IV is less active than King John. Im not convinced hed respond in a week and I dont think hed accept the position.

Note that people not accepting would be totally fine here. We'd just have a week more of regency.

Also, we can give people a chance. If they turn out to be tyrants (which is hardly possible considering the limited power the monarch has) or, more likely, are completely inactive, we can remove them, knowing a replacement procedure is in place and we wouldnt need to go through all this mess again.


Finally, if we are looking at the list, you may also have noticed a lot of people high up on the list are former citizens of the republic. Wouldn't that be a nice resolution to the whole reunision saga?

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

The first complication that crosses my mind is that on the early part of the list of current citizens, you have people from the era when citizenship was granted by legislative act, which you have a bunch of people who have identical first dates of citizenship because they were all on the same Clark. After Gjermund Higraff you have a two-way tie, immediately after that you have a three-way tie, and then there's another two-way tie.

Second, if it's by first date of citizenship, there's still a version of the "become citizen to become king" and "experienced, knows Talossan culture and has a track record of sticking around" issues -- someone whose citizenship lapsed long ago and re-citizenships.

These issues can even combine -- there were five other people who became citizens on the same Clark as Gjermund Higraff. If one (or more!) of them show up next week, theoretically you've got a tie for head of the line.

You raise some good points. Obviously there were gonna be some complications (though I have yet to see the first proposal without complications). Here's a possible solution:

We keep a record of the order of succession. To start with we have all currently active citizens, in order of their citizen number. From here on out however, anyone who loses citizenship is removed from the order of succession. Re-joining puts you at the bottom of the list.


- This solves the returning only to become King problem
- There are no more ties. Using citizen number to resolve ties is a bit arbitrary but this list was made long ago without considering this as a possible consequence so there wouldnt have been foul play involved.
- We dont retroactively punish people on the list for losing citizenship and returning. There isn't a good record of this anyway. Of course nobody has returned to Talossa so far just because they thought they could become King so it's fine.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

- Mximo I know is somewhat controversial, but he is on average about equally controversial on both sides of the political spectrum, depending on what year we live in, which might make him a good compromise candidate. And he's managed to stick around for a long time and become part of our history despite receiving quite a lot of pushback. Id be down for King Mximo.

I'm somewhat "on the spectrum" so forgive me if I can't tell which of the three reactions is appropriate:

a) Ha ha, well, that excuses me from taking this proposal seriously in any way.

b) I suppose if you're intermittently active in Talossa, deliberately causing uproar and chaos at the heart of the political system might be funny from a distance, but less funny for the people who keep this Kingdom going day to day to put up with this - let's re-emphasise because the good Baron insists on it - lifetime appointment.

c) Someone always seems to come up with a "wacky suggestion" just when we seem to be close to consensus on political reform. I am reminded of someone saying that nothing should really be allowed to change in Talossan politics because that would make it confusing for citizens to come back from extended break. Like, Talossa should be a daytime soap opera where nothing really changes and nothing really happens.

Also, we can give people a chance. If they turn out to be tyrants (which is hardly possible considering the limited power the monarch has) or, more likely, are completely inactive, we can remove them, knowing a replacement procedure is in place and we wouldnt need to go through all this mess again.

We are here because we have spent six years trying to remove a monarch.

[Ián Tamorán S.H.]

There is another definition of seniority: the order could be in descending order of *physical* age (which you cannot change and cannot cheat!) for all who have been citizens *continuously* for at least X years. (X might be five or ten or seven or whatever is decided to be best).

I, personally, have to be a bit cautious in suggesting this as (I think) I am the *physically* oldest still here in Talossa... I was born in 1945... perhaps I would be the zeroth, not first, choice <grin>

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

I'd like to apologise somewhat for my post above - it came out more ill-tempered and accusatory than it sounded in my head. I don't think Glüc is consciously trying to troll and derail.

But I have to reiterate that - if it really doesn't matter who's King because the job is low-powered - then I am suddenly in favour of the continued rule of John I rather than this option. Talossa has already tried the "King who no-one really wants" option, it didn't end well.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

I'd like to apologise somewhat for my post above - it came out more ill-tempered and accusatory than it sounded in my head. I don't think Glüc is consciously trying to troll and derail.

But I have to reiterate that - if it really doesn't matter who's King because the job is low-powered - then I am suddenly in favour of the continued rule of John I rather than this option. Talossa has already tried the "King who no-one really wants" option, it didn't end well.

It's a good thing I wasn't drinking hot coffee when I read this. You have a remarkable ability to shock me.

[mximo]

Lol second in the line of succession to the throne... Hum Machiavellian laugh

Thanks but no thanks ahhahaha I don't want to become king, don't worry Miestra. Seems like I'm still identifying here as controversial. It's getting really hurtful... I became a citizen I was 18 I'm now 44. Sometimes it seems like your comments about me aren't changing. But I'm no longer a teenager...

Don't worry, I have no desire to become King. But I would definitely become a Duke if it comes with a retirement pension and a mansion ;)

Mximo Carbonèl

[Miestră Schivă, UrN]

Sometimes it seems like your comments about me aren't changing.

Parce que les comportements ne changent non plus

[GV]

Let's look at the actual figures. The succession to the throne would be:

1) Gjermund Higraff.
2) Mximo Carbonel.
3) Ieremiac'h Ventrutx.

I like Gjermund but he's less active than John. As for the others........

Not happening.

Max would drive this country over the edge.  I absolutely do *not* want IV as King.  I'm sure he's a good man in general, but he would be too much of a politico (one way or the other) and would alienate half the country.

If either were to be elected appropriately, that would be a different matter.  To have any sort of seniority system could conceivably allow the infamous Daviu Ardit to make a return, putting him first in line to the throne.

He would be trumped, though, by a potential resurgent G. Conâ who would be too much of a Ben-partisan.  Gjermund would be fine, but a seniority system would be manipulated in the future to make sure one faction's people by a future rogue SoS would be naturalized one day earlier than those who would lean to another faction.

Conceivably, Ben Madison himself could convince enough of the country to allow him back in, making him the next monarch.

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

Max would drive this country over the edge. 

How? I don't agree with that at all. Either way he has already said he's not interested in becoming King.

I absolutely do *not* want IV as King.  I'm sure he's a good man in general, but he would be too much of a politico (one way or the other) and would alienate half the country.

Highly doubt IV is even around to accept the position. The argument that he is partisan feels a bit strange coming from a republican. Do we think that an elected head of state would not be  "a politico"? At the very least we know he wouldn't be elected because of any political dealings or campaigning.

If either were to be elected appropriately, that would be a different matter.

How so? Would they be more inclined to be a King for all Talossans if they were elected for partisan reasons?

To have any sort of seniority system could conceivably allow the infamous Daviu Ardit to make a return, putting him first in line to the throne.

No. This couldn't happen if its done as described here.

He would be trumped, though, by a potential resurgent G. Conâ who would be too much of a Ben-partisan.

No. This couldn't happen if its done as described here. Also there are no Ben-partisans in Talossa anymore. This is ancient history at this point.

Gjermund would be fine, but a seniority system would be manipulated in the future to make sure one faction's people by a future rogue SoS would be naturalized one day earlier than those who would lean to another faction.

That would mean two prospectives at the same time and then the sos would somehow already know their political affiliation and then for it to work they have to assume both of them stick around for 15 or 20 or 30 years and both will want to be King and at that point in time still have the same political views as when they just arrived as a prospective that still match with the political views of the SoS. Seems a bit farfetched no?

Conceivably, Ben Madison himself could convince enough of the country to allow him back in, making him the next monarch.

No. This couldn't happen if its done as described here. Also didn't he try this before and got a resounding no? Also he would immediately be removed.

This isn't the first time we got this absurd Ben-fearmongering. It's a complete fantasy. It's no more likely than Ben being elected or selected as heir presumptive or staging an actual military coup. Don't like my idea? That's perfectly alright. But don't let it be because of this reason.

Truth is I don't think it is at all obvious who becomes King if we do this. (Other than definitely not Ben!) I just know they won't be King because of some political dealings or partisan preferences. I think thats a feature rather than a bug.

[Glüc da Dhi S.H.]

I'm somewhat "on the spectrum" so forgive me if I can't tell which of the three reactions is appropriate:

a) Ha ha, well, that excuses me from taking this proposal seriously in any way.

b) I suppose if you're intermittently active in Talossa, deliberately causing uproar and chaos at the heart of the political system might be funny from a distance, but less funny for the people who keep this Kingdom going day to day to put up with this - let's re-emphasise because the good Baron insists on it - lifetime appointment.

c) Someone always seems to come up with a "wacky suggestion" just when we seem to be close to consensus on political reform. I am reminded of someone saying that nothing should really be allowed to change in Talossan politics because that would make it confusing for citizens to come back from extended break. Like, Talossa should be a daytime soap opera where nothing really changes and nothing really happens.

Well I prefer b, because it's at least a valid concern, whereas the other two just assume Im trolling and not serious about this proposal, which is wrong.