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Author Topic: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act  (Read 827 times)

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2020, 06:46:36 PM »
Alex, you still don't get it. You're still talking about the National Census as described by law, and the National Survey, the Government initiative I ran last year and I aim to run again if I'm re-elected, as if they were the same thing. You're making a fool of yourself.

BTW, it's not very cool to use ableist language like "insane" to describe things you disagree with.
I'm not sure you quite get it, honestly. I haven't been talking about the national survey at all.  Like the second thing in this thread was that I didn't care about it.

I think I've been pretty clear about what my desires are. But whatever, call me a fool. It doesn't really matter and debate here won't affect the outcome anyway.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 07:41:21 PM by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu »
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2020, 09:31:24 PM »
Iason, tell me this. Is there any way by which the Government can get in touch with Vitx? A working email address, etc? A phone number? A snail-mail address?

This is all that the Government wants to make sure we have. The Government wants to make sure we can contact every citizen, by whatever means. We certainly don't want to make "using Witt" compulsory - in fact, we condemn the current M-M Senatorial election, in which you can only vote with a NewWitt account and this causes problems.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 09:35:34 PM by Miestră Schivă, UrN »

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Offline Açafat del Val

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2020, 11:36:37 AM »
If you're like me at all, I got my eyes crossed and head upside down trying to understand what's going on in this thread. So, I think it'd help to clarify:

The status quo creates five separate contact lists for five separate purposes, but only three of them may be "opted out" by a citizen. Those three are...

1) A list for the Chancery, via C.1.2.2.5;
2) A list for political parties, via D.8.5; and
3) A list for general citizens, via D.8.8.

The Seneschal would like to make the Chancery list mandatory, where a citizen may NOT opt out, so that newsletters and other print media may be distributed. Some opposition to this idea is that a person may NOT want to receive newsletters in the first place.

However, it should be pointed out that the Chancery list may be used only when the message...

1) Pertains wholly to official Government business,
2) Does not include whatsoever any publicity or other businesses about a political party or candidate, and
3) Is not sent so often before or after another as to be considered spam.

Therefore, I might suggest that newsletters like La C'hronica are already impermissible because they're likely not to pertain wholly to Government business and are likely to discuss politics.

If this bill were to pass, there would be no more increased danger of receiving "newsletters" or "political ads" than in the status quo.

Offline Açafat del Val

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 11:56:46 AM »
To that end, I recognize the merits for which the Seneschal may want citizens to receive certain news media (such as La C'hronica). I think and do suggest that that should be introduced as a whole separate bill, however.

Furthermore, after poring through El Lexhatx, it seems that there may be a greater need for reform than we realized. El Lexhatx is incredibly muddled on this subject, and it just should not have taken me or anyone else so much effort to figure out which lists are what and which lists may be opted out of.

Perhaps we could ask citizens the following questions:

1) Do you want to receive information about or from elections, political parties, political campaigns, and candidates?
2) Do you want to receive information from accredited news outlets, such as newsletters or magazines?
3) Do you want to be contacted or reachable otherwise via email by other citizens?

The default answer to all three questions is 'yes', but a citizen may elect 'no'.

This would require, as I said, some pretty hefty overhauling of El Lexhatx.

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 12:15:25 PM »
If you're like me at all, I got my eyes crossed and head upside down trying to understand what's going on in this thread. So, I think it'd help to clarify:

The status quo creates five separate contact lists for five separate purposes, but only three of them may be "opted out" by a citizen. Those three are...

1) A list for the Chancery, via C.1.2.2.5;
2) A list for political parties, via D.8.5; and
3) A list for general citizens, via D.8.8.

The Seneschal would like to make the Chancery list mandatory, where a citizen may NOT opt out, so that newsletters and other print media may be distributed. Some opposition to this idea is that a person may NOT want to receive newsletters in the first place.

However, it should be pointed out that the Chancery list may be used only when the message...

1) Pertains wholly to official Government business,
2) Does not include whatsoever any publicity or other businesses about a political party or candidate, and
3) Is not sent so often before or after another as to be considered spam.

Therefore, I might suggest that newsletters like La C'hronica are already impermissible because they're likely not to pertain wholly to Government business and are likely to discuss politics.

If this bill were to pass, there would be no more increased danger of receiving "newsletters" or "political ads" than in the status quo.
That was a good summary and clarifying, thank you.  There was basically no opposition to the provisions specifically in question, which were Clarked by the current Seneschal a few months into her tenure, so unfortunately there's no discussion about the merits of allowing citizens to opt-out of Government newsletters.  As I recall, Gluc mostly just wanted to know how much was too much.

While I have no interest in Government newsletters, including La C'hronica, by the way, I do have to disagree that it isn't permitted under the current rules.  Thus far they seem to be even-handed and apolitical summaries of discussions and events in Talossa, and while the system could certainly be abused, ESB has actually done a good job in that regard.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2020, 12:17:46 PM »
Furthermore, after poring through El Lexhatx, it seems that there may be a greater need for reform than we realized. El Lexhatx is incredibly muddled on this subject, and it just should not have taken me or anyone else so much effort to figure out which lists are what and which lists may be opted out of.
Yeah, each of the three sections were the result of three separate people adding their own addendums/lists to the existing system.  First there was the electorate database established by Etho with his transparency bill, then Ian P. added the contact database as part of his continuing efforts to get people to talk off of Witt sometimes, and then Miestra added the ability of the Government to send stuff through the official Chancery list.  Probably all three should be cut and consolidated in one Title and with a clear system that the SoS is okay with.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Açafat del Val

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2020, 12:32:37 PM »
Probably all three should be cut and consolidated in one Title and with a clear system that the SoS is okay with.

Very much agreed; it's what I was getting at.

What I'd like to suggest is that:

(a) This bill specifically be left alone;

(b) If/When this bill may be clarked, we make it clear to everyone that citizens will be mandatorily "opted in" only for truly important Government information (for example, the death of a beloved citizen or a DDoS attack on Witt);

(c) Newsletters like La C'hronica, however apolitical they may or may not be, be sent via a different mechanism than the Chancery List; and

(d) We introduce a separate bill that rewrites/consolidates the applicable parts of El Lexhatx.

As I said, the next three questions are the ones that matter:

1) Do you want to receive information about or from elections, political parties, political campaigns, and candidates?
2) Do you want to receive information from accredited news outlets, such as newsletters or magazines?
3) Do you want to be contacted or reachable otherwise via email by other citizens?

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2020, 04:03:41 PM »
(b) If/When this bill may be clarked, we make it clear to everyone that citizens will be mandatorily "opted in" only for truly important Government information (for example, the death of a beloved citizen or a DDoS attack on Witt);

(c) Newsletters like La C'hronica, however apolitical they may or may not be, be sent via a different mechanism than the Chancery List;

No. I believe that La C'hronica is a vital public service and categories B and C should not be separated. It is of vital state interest that every single citizen be kept up to date with what's happening in Talossa, even if they never read Wittenberg. I would say the main reason why inactive citizens stay inactive is that there's no way to "catch up" on events and issues. La C'hronica is that method and I will die in a ditch to make sure it goes out to every single citizen. AD is free to SPAM-trap it if he so desires.

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Offline Açafat del Val

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2020, 11:22:09 AM »
In either case, I will support this bill and plan to vote for it.

I do think,however, that we should still introduce a separate bill that rewrites/consolidates the applicable parts of El Lexhatx. I guess it's another thing to add to my growing list...

And again...

Quote
1) Do you want to receive information about or from elections, political parties, political campaigns, and candidates?
2) Do you want to receive information from accredited news outlets, such as newsletters or magazines?
3) Do you want to be contacted or reachable otherwise via email by other citizens?

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2020, 09:07:14 PM »
I would feel more comfortable with this bill if the second requirement were modified to the effect of:

"Such communication may not include publicity for, or any other business pertaining to, any political party or candidate for election, or advocate for or against any ideology, political position, or legislation."

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2020, 09:11:44 PM »
^^^ sounds reasonable, let me think on it

ETA: okay, cool
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 12:18:37 AM by Miestră Schivă, UrN »

Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Talossa. Ask me anything.

"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan
"It probably would be a bit helpful if you resigned and became inactive..." - Sir A. Davinescù