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Author Topic: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act  (Read 1048 times)

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« on: July 14, 2020, 10:57:50 PM »
WHEREAS El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5.4 currently provides that citizens may "opt out" from Government emails;

AND WHEREAS anecdotal evidence suggests that citizens who have opted out from the Electorate Database (for political advertising) or the Contact Database (for contact from other citizens) are also not getting the emails that have been sent out by the Government, that is, that the Chancery have assumed that they have "opted out";

AND WHEREAS initiatives like
La C'hronica and the National Survey are supposed to reach out to all citizens, not just those who read Wittenberg or social media regularly;

AND WHEREAS it must be possible for the Government to contact all citizens, every single one, for such initiatives to be effective;

AND WHEREAS the other provisions contained in El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5.1-3 are sufficient to stop the Government "spamming" citizens except about important things;


BE IT ENACTED by the King, Cosa and Senats in Ziu assembled that El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5 be amended as below:

Quote
C.1.2.2.5 The Seneschál may request on behalf of the Government that a given communication shall be sent out by the Chancery to the email address of every citizen who has not "opted out" as provided in section 1.2.2.5.4 below. The Chancery shall grant this request if, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, the following provisions are met:

1.2.2.5.1 Such communication shall pertain wholly to official Government business.

1.2.2.5.2 Such communication may not include publicity for, or any other business pertaining to, any political party or candidate for election, nor advocate for or against any ideology, political position, or legislation.

1.2.2.5.3 Such communications are not sufficiently frequent or repetitive enough to qualify as "spam".

1.2.2.5.4 Citizens may "opt out" of receiving such communications by making a request to the Chancery.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 12:19:15 AM by Miestră Schivă, UrN »

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Offline Glüc da Dhi S.H.

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2020, 04:26:06 AM »
AND WHEREAS anecdotal evidence suggests that citizens who have opted out from the Electorate Database (for political advertising) or the Contact Database (for contact from other citizens) are also not getting the emails that have been sent out by the Government, that is, that the Chancery have assumed that they have "opted out";

This is not true. The contact database isn't functioning at the moment because you need to opt in and I think only one person has. Opting out from the electoral database doesnt result in an opt out from government communications (though its possible that some have blocked the email address used for both alltogether).

The people who opted out from the government list (more than people who opted in to the contact one) replied opt out to one of the  chronica mails

Offline Glüc da Dhi S.H.

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2020, 04:28:22 AM »
Disagreed that citizens who specifically dont want government newsletters should get government newsletters.

Also worried that it might result in people ignoring all Talossa related email or people changing their database email.

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2020, 04:53:02 PM »
I think there's a misunderstanding here. To my knowledge, there is no "government list". There is an Electoral Database (for electioneering from political parties) and a Contact Database (for contact from other Talossans). Has the chancery set up a third list, for Government/official announcements? Because I can't find authorisation for that in law.

I know for a fact that not all current citizens have been receiving La C'hronica, or at least that's what they told me.

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Offline Açafat del Val

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2020, 12:14:27 PM »
I don’t recall opting out of any email lists — on the contrary, I quite like to receive all Talossa communications because it keeps me informed and in the loops.

I didn’t receive any political emails in this election so far, except my ballot, nor copies of La C'hronica. Why not?

Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2020, 08:45:10 AM »
I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2020, 03:11:25 PM »
I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.

Just making it clear that we are talking about communications from the Government to all citizens through the Chancery, as specified in El Lexh C.1.2.2.5. You seem to be saying that you don't want to receive the National Survey and La C'hronică, methods the Government has created precisely to re-activate citizens. This is where anti-Government spite has its limits.

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Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 05:04:13 PM »
I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.

Just making it clear that we are talking about communications from the Government to all citizens through the Chancery, as specified in El Lexh C.1.2.2.5. You seem to be saying that you don't want to receive the National Survey and La C'hronică, methods the Government has created precisely to re-activate citizens. This is where anti-Government spite has its limits.
I don't mind getting the survey, but I don't want to receive any Government newsletters.  I guess if the Government changes the law to try to force me to accept them, I can always set up an email filter, but that's annoying.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 09:42:57 PM »

I don't mind getting the survey, but I don't want to receive any Government newsletters.

That makes slightly more sense - but how would you distinguish between them in terms of the current law?

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Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2020, 10:00:18 PM »
Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).  So just abandon your bill.  Thanks.

There is also an Electorate/Electoral Database that people can opt-in for political adverts, and a Contact Database that people can opt-in to just have their email info available to any Talossan.
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2020, 11:31:10 PM »
Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).

I am beginning to think you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you talk so confidently as if you did, lol. There is no difference in current law between the National Survey and La C'hronică. Both are authorised by El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5. I think you are perhaps confusing the Census with the National Survey?

In any case, I think there is a more fundamental question here, and that is that the Chancery email list is itself defective, as shown by how many people in this election haven't received ballots (I've had 4 complaints so far), let alone never receive La C'hronică. So I'm going to get back on my hobby horse about making the Census compulsory - i.e. if you don't keep your email updated, your citizenship gets put on ice until you do.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 11:33:41 PM by Miestră Schivă, UrN »

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Offline Sir Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2020, 07:17:26 AM »
Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).

I am beginning to think you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you talk so confidently as if you did, lol. There is no difference in current law between the National Survey and La C'hronică. Both are authorised by El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5. I think you are perhaps confusing the Census with the National Survey?

In addition to the C.1.2.2.5 provision ("C.1.2.2.5 The Seneschál may request on behalf of the Government that a given communication shall be sent out by the Chancery to the email address of every citizen who has not "opted out" as provided in section 1.2.2.5.4 below"), there are two other parts of el Lexh that create contact lists.  One is referred to as the "Electorate Database," and the other is the "Contact Information Database."

Quote
D.8.5. Information Available to Political Party Leaders
8.5.1. An Electorate Database shall be made available to political party leaders.
8.5.2. The Database shall only be accessible by leaders of parties which have been fully registered with the Chancery and provincial officers, provided the conditions in D.8.5 are met.
8.5.3. The Database shall contain the following information on each of the Kingdom's Citizens only: Name, Province, E-Mail address.
8.5.4. The E-Mail address of a citizen shall only be made available to party leaders if the citizen has opted-in to receive election communications
8.5.5. Measures shall be taken to ensure that the database is kept non-public and can only be viewed by the audience intended.
8.5.6. Additional information may be held upon the database against any given person ONLY if that person requests such information to be included.
8.5.7. Any citizen may request to opt-out of having their E-Mail address included in this database for any reason at any time by notifying the Chancery.

D.8.8 Information Available to All Citizens (53RZ23)
8.8.1. An Contact Information Database shall be made available to all citizens. (53RZ23)
8.8.2. The Database shall contain the following information on each of the Kingdom's Citizens only: Name, Province, E-Mail address. (53RZ23)
8.8.3. The E-Mail address of a citizen shall only be made available if the citizen has opted-in to receiving communications. Opting-in to the Electorate Database does not constitute opting-in to the Contact Information Database. (53RZ23)
8.8.4. Additional information may be held upon the database against any given person ONLY if that person requests such information to be included. (53RZ23)
8.8.5. Each electoral ballot and census shall ask if the citizen would like to opt-in to the Electoral Database and the Contact Information Database. Any citizen may request to opt-out of having their E-Mail address included in this database for any reason at any time by notifying the Chancery.

You propose to alter the first provision, which places limits on the power of the government to use the chancery list to contact citizens, by removing the ability of people to opt out of it. I do not want to see if any government newsletters, but to receive the census. So the status quo is what I prefer.

In any case, I think there is a more fundamental question here, and that is that the Chancery email list is itself defective, as shown by how many people in this election haven't received ballots (I've had 4 complaints so far), let alone never receive La C'hronică. So I'm going to get back on my hobby horse about making the Census compulsory - i.e. if you don't keep your email updated, your citizenship gets put on ice until you do.
Makes absolute sense to be more rigorous about kicking out citizens, sure.  There's too many right now, since we're growing too fast, and if they don't keep their email address updated with the Chancery, they don't deserve to be Talossans.  On both a moral and practical level, it makes sense to punish people for failing to update their contact information by exiling them from Talossa, even if they still stay interested enough and active enough to vote.  Definitely not completely insane.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 07:34:58 AM by Sir Alexandreu Davinescu »
Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2020, 03:30:51 PM »
Alex, you still don't get it. You're still talking about the National Census as described by law, and the National Survey, the Government initiative I ran last year and I aim to run again if I'm re-elected, as if they were the same thing. You're making a fool of yourself.

BTW, it's not very cool to use ableist language like "insane" to describe things you disagree with.

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Offline Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2020, 04:23:01 PM »
Given Talossa's nature as a voluntary association, I think keeping the ability to opt-out is important.  But at the same time, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to opt out completely in the first place.

I think part of this cuts right to the heart of what it means to "do Talossa."  Given the peculiar nature of Talossa, is a citizen who is completely incommunicado with the wider community still count as Talossan?  No interest in current goings on, contact information completely out of date, no functional link to the Talossan state.  Can this person still be said to be "doing Talossa?"

The Derivationist answer is probably, in some way, "yes."  Peculiarists of a certain stripe may very well say "no."  Most voluntary associations require contact (many even require a level of activity) to be considered a "member." 

Then that gets us into the weeds of whether something is lost when an inactive citizen is cut form the rolls.  But that's an answer that varies based on what you value.

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Offline Iason Taiwos

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Re: The Opting Out Of Opting Out Act
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2020, 06:22:07 PM »
Given Talossa's nature as a voluntary association, I think keeping the ability to opt-out is important.  But at the same time, I have a hard time wrapping my head around why someone would want to opt out completely in the first place.

I think part of this cuts right to the heart of what it means to "do Talossa."  Given the peculiar nature of Talossa, is a citizen who is completely incommunicado with the wider community still count as Talossan?  No interest in current goings on, contact information completely out of date, no functional link to the Talossan state.  Can this person still be said to be "doing Talossa?"

The Derivationist answer is probably, in some way, "yes."  Peculiarists of a certain stripe may very well say "no."  Most voluntary associations require contact (many even require a level of activity) to be considered a "member." 

Then that gets us into the weeds of whether something is lost when an inactive citizen is cut form the rolls.  But that's an answer that varies based on what you value.
Vitxalmour Conductour is my best friend. We are in constant contact with each other, and see each other, at the very least, once a week. (We'd probably hang out more often than that, if my day job wasn't so physically demanding.) (Hard to have fun with a pal when you are completely exhausted.) Vitx hasn't bothered to register on this New Witt. He's still a Talossan, we constantly discuss Talossan things, and collaborate all the time on ideas for our Benito Cjováni subculture. The online aspect of Talossa just doesn't interest him much. (He's raising four daughters, so he has other priorities.) His inactivity may cause him to be cut from the rolls, which is not fair. Is Talossa just an internet club? Like Facebook groups that expel members when they haven't participated or posted anything in awhile? To me, Witt ain't Talossa. It's an online forum about Talossa. Being Talossan is what you do, offline.