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Author Topic: The underground RUMP  (Read 1169 times)

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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The underground RUMP
« on: July 26, 2020, 01:06:47 AM »
interesting to note that the RUMP still exists (as a mailing list, at least), and that #2 on the "LCC" list for this election is doing his best to motivate a big turnout from them.

Double interesting to note that he is also trying to motivate them to vote down all of the outgoing Government's constitutional reforms for this election - including Non-Hereditary Monarchy, the pride and joy of the LCC founder/leader.

Given the incredibly loose nature of the LCC, in both programme and structure, moderates who might be tempted to vote for Senator Plätschisch as a steady moderate hand might think twice given that the most die-hard reactionaries in Talossa are not only backing him, but will most likely make up most of his cabinet.

It's also distressing to note C. M. Sierviciúl making some cogent arguments against Non-Hereditary Monarchy in his email, which were never made in public. The "political strike" of the RUMP and other conservatives only seems to entail refusing to participate in public politics, to make the Government look bad; it certainly doesn't mean pulling out of politics altogether. I think we need to know if the LCC is a big wooden horse full of RUMP.

Finally, Cresti should check in with AD. If your hammer to hit the Government with is "you're driving down voter turnout", then encouraging a big voter turnout just makes the Free Democrats look god!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 04:17:39 PM by Miestră Schivă, UrN »

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Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2020, 11:39:58 AM »
interesting to note that the RUMP still exists (as a mailing list, at least), and that #2 on the "LCC" list for this election is doing his best to motivate a big turnout from them.
A mailing list does not a party make. That said, it should not be surprising to you that people who are pro-Monarchy are using the means at their disposal to support the only party in the race that clearly supports the Monarchy.
Quote
Double interesting to note that he is also trying to motivate them to vote down all of the outgoing Government's constitutional reforms for this election - including Non-Hereditary Monarchy, the pride and joy of the LCC founder/leader.

Given the incredibly loose nature of the LCC, in both programme and structure, moderates who might be tempted to vote for Senator Plätschisch as a steady moderate hand might think twice given that the most die-hard reactionaries in Talossa are not only backing him, but will most likely make up most of his cabinet.
It's essentially inevitable that a party trying to represent as much of the political spectrum as we are will occasionally be at cross purposes with itself. I am confident the Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment will pass, and I won't jeopardize the LCC's ability to appeal to the sundry factions of Talossan Monarchists by squabbling over it.

For the purposes of who would be in an LCC Cabinet, it is essentially irrelevant whether anyone is a "die-hard reactionary." The role of the cabinet is to enact our executive policies, which are clearly laid out here and have nothing to do with increasing the King's powers beyond what he still retains. If the LCC wins a majority in the Cosa, there is still no way any new legislation could pass the Ziu without the approval of established moderates such as S:reu Itravilatx and myself.

Quote
I think we need to know if the LCC is a big wooden horse full of RUMP.
It's not.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 11:43:23 AM by Ian Plätschisch »

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2020, 03:45:59 PM »
For the purposes of who would be in an LCC Cabinet, it is essentially irrelevant whether anyone is a "die-hard reactionary."

I heartily disagree.

Let me be clear, it is very good that Sir Cresti is coming out of political retirement, and even that Sir Alexandreu has volunteered to serve in an LCC cabinet. But the Cabinet is not a "bunch of active people who do jobs". It is a political leadership above all. And these are representatives of the RUMP tradition, who have been on "political strike" ever since they lost effective political power. Cresti's letter reveals to me the issue with people who, after losing a few public political battles, vacate the stage of public discourse altogether but continue to "machinate" behind the scenes.

I know full well, because I nominated Sir Alexandreu to the UC position - that these are talented people who are welcome back into activity and should be given positions of responsibility, preferable in the Civil Service. But positions of political leadership? Even worse, unearned ones, behind the veil provided by the paper-thin LCC programme? I have this image of a 55th Cabinet Cosa where Seneschál Plätschisch is a de-powered figurehead and ex-RUMPers run the show. I urge the good Senator to remember the line from Cabaret - "do you still think you can control them"?

Quote
If the LCC wins a majority in the Cosa, there is still no way any new legislation could pass the Ziu without the approval of established moderates such as S:reu Itravilatx and myself.

... that's assuming that the Free Democrats and NPW are happy to help you out of the jam you've got yourself in  ;D

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Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2020, 04:25:19 PM »
For the purposes of who would be in an LCC Cabinet, it is essentially irrelevant whether anyone is a "die-hard reactionary."

I heartily disagree.

Let me be clear, it is very good that Sir Cresti is coming out of political retirement, and even that Sir Alexandreu has volunteered to serve in an LCC cabinet. But the Cabinet is not a "bunch of active people who do jobs". It is a political leadership above all. And these are representatives of the RUMP tradition, who have been on "political strike" ever since they lost effective political power. Cresti's letter reveals to me the issue with people who, after losing a few public political battles, vacate the stage of public discourse altogether but continue to "machinate" behind the scenes.

I know full well, because I nominated Sir Alexandreu to the UC position - that these are talented people who are welcome back into activity and should be given positions of responsibility, preferable in the Civil Service. But positions of political leadership? Even worse, unearned ones, behind the veil provided by the paper-thin LCC programme? I have this image of a 55th Cabinet Cosa where Seneschál Plätschisch is a de-powered figurehead and ex-RUMPers run the show. I urge the good Senator to remember the line from Cabaret - "do you still think you can control them"?

Quote
If the LCC wins a majority in the Cosa, there is still no way any new legislation could pass the Ziu without the approval of established moderates such as S:reu Itravilatx and myself.

... that's assuming that the Free Democrats and NPW are happy to help you out of the jam you've got yourself in  ;D

I will quote myself explaining how I intend to form an LCC cabinet:

Here's how I would go about building a cabinet:
-Starting with people I would consider LCC members, Txosue seems quite motivated, and Breneir Itravilatx and Sir Cresti could hopefully make themselves available as well
-AD just volunteered
-There have been several other people on Witt who have shown support for us
-I am, if I may say, one of the best of us at engaging with new citizens. I am in regular contact with some of them and, if I was trying to form a cabinet, I bet I could convince one or two to join
-A general call to citizens
-If I was still short, I'd reach out to the NPW and see if we couldn't find any common ground for a coalition.
Clearly, it is not my intention to fill up my cabinet with inactive ex-RUMPers. Even if I did, what are you afraid that they would do? I couldn't be couped unless the hypothetical FreeDem opposition actively helped the people you just called die-hard reactionaries, which doesn't seem likely.

While we may hope that opposition parties stay active, it is easy to see why, after having been included in only one government since the end of the 45th Cosa, why many in the RUMP would not be around much anymore. Indeed, the activity of Free Democrats on Wittenberg declined noticeably during the one Cosa since then (the 49th) they were excluded from Government.

Just because one email got sent out does not mean there is a vast amount of private activity going on.


Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2020, 04:30:14 PM »
Indeed, the activity of Free Democrats on Wittenberg declined noticeably during the one Cosa since then (the 49th) they were excluded from Government.

You know that that was due to the personal abuse in the Proclamation Crisis I got, which literally gave me a physical health issue (insomnia). To put in in the same category as the RUMP Political Strike is reprehensible.

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Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2020, 04:32:46 PM »
Indeed, the activity of Free Democrats on Wittenberg declined noticeably during the one Cosa since then (the 49th) they were excluded from Government.

You know that that was due to the personal abuse in the Proclamation Crisis I got, which literally gave me a physical health issue (insomnia). To put in in the same category as the RUMP Political Strike is reprehensible.
The activity of the entire party declined, and that is what I said.

Offline Eiric S. Bornatfiglheu

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2020, 06:24:29 PM »
Here's how I would go about building a cabinet:
-Starting with people I would consider LCC members, Txosue seems quite motivated, and Breneir Itravilatx and Sir Cresti could hopefully make themselves available as well
-AD just volunteered
-There have been several other people on Witt who have shown support for us
-I am, if I may say, one of the best of us at engaging with new citizens. I am in regular contact with some of them and, if I was trying to form a cabinet, I bet I could convince one or two to join
-A general call to citizens
-If I was still short, I'd reach out to the NPW and see if we couldn't find any common ground for a coalition.

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Offline Txosuè Éiric Rôibeardescù

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2020, 09:47:38 AM »
interesting to note that the RUMP still exists (as a mailing list, at least), and that #2 on the "LCC" list for this election is doing his best to motivate a big turnout from them.

Double interesting to note that he is also trying to motivate them to vote down all of the outgoing Government's constitutional reforms for this election - including Non-Hereditary Monarchy, the pride and joy of the LCC founder/leader.

Given the incredibly loose nature of the LCC, in both programme and structure, moderates who might be tempted to vote for Senator Plätschisch as a steady moderate hand might think twice given that the most die-hard reactionaries in Talossa are not only backing him, but will most likely make up most of his cabinet.

It's also distressing to note C. M. Sierviciúl making some cogent arguments against Non-Hereditary Monarchy in his email, which were never made in public. The "political strike" of the RUMP and other conservatives only seems to entail refusing to participate in public politics, to make the Government look bad; it certainly doesn't mean pulling out of politics altogether. I think we need to know if the LCC is a big wooden horse full of RUMP.

Finally, Cresti should check in with AD. If your hammer to hit the Government with is "you're driving down voter turnout", then encouraging a big voter turnout just makes the Free Democrats look god!


lets be honest, you see the LCC as threat. having interacted with you since 2014, when things are not going your way you start your attack. If you welcomed friendly opposition, why would you call out new parties for having members of old ones? I was a member of the Libral congress, yet you don't see that as a problem. we don't frequently call you out for the pengunia and republic crisis, yet you where very much party to it? You don't debate us on election points, you focus on individuals, targeting them. Maybe that's why we are running against you, maybe we are making a stand because we are sick of a senachal that relentlessly targets all those that oppose them. Maybe its because we are witnessing you acting like someone you claim to hate. King ben was well known for crushing opposition that opposed him, relentlessly, causing the the many crisis of his reign. Maybe we are headed for one or even in the miths of it, lower and lower interaction and turn out. Maybe they are leaving or interacting less because they are sick of thunderdome politics.
Túischac'h of the 55th Cosa
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Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The undergroup RUMP
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2020, 04:16:48 PM »
I just realised how odd it is that Cresti counselled a vote against all the Constitutional Amendments... including the one about Amada Merþedes, which was meant to restore the meaning of that Organic section that the King himself preferred.

A case of being more monarchist than the King? Or simply "that garça the Seneschál proposed it, I'm voting against it"?

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Offline Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: The underground RUMP
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2020, 06:12:30 PM »
I find it interesting that some of the people who advocate for making all discourse public have to debate their philosophies in the shadows.
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Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The underground RUMP
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2020, 06:17:09 PM »
If only the RUMP were as interesting as the creatures depicted in _What We Do in the Shadows_

(movie or TV series, both are good)

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Offline GV

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Cresti, let's see these 'cogent' arguments. Post them here, please.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2020, 07:02:31 PM »
Four generations from now, the Woollerian monarchy will be far less democratically-established than when it began.  What's to keep a John V from going rogue in some way with almost no recourse?

Why is having a non-hereditary monarchy so repugnant to so many?

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The underground RUMP
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2020, 07:16:14 PM »
Since Cresti is unlikely to read this before the end of the election, I'll repost his email in full (or at least the email that was passed on to me by someone on the RUMP mailing list)

Quote
Azul RUMPers!


As you may know, a general election is currently under way in Talossa, and is running through 1 August. Although the RUMP is not contesting this election, I would still like to urge each of you to vote, even if you vote “present” for the Cosa.. The government and the parties need to know that we are still here and we matter. Also, there are a number of important OrgLaw amendments on the ballot, and we need to make our voice heard on them.

I think I oppose all of the referenda on the ballot, but of particular importance is RZ28, the Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment. It would eliminate hereditary succession to the throne. But more than that, it also eliminates any procedure for selecting a new king! So not only does it mean that the natural heirs of King John would not succeed him to the throne, there would be no way of selecting ANYONE ELSE to succeed him. It might as well be called the Monarchy Elimination Amendment. It would take ANOTHER amendment to enact a new process for selecting the next king, and that could be blocked indefinitely as long as republicans control at least 1/3 of the Cosa. Even if you think the monarchy should not be hereditary, we should at least reach consensus on the alternative to hereditary succession before eliminating it from the law. At a minimum, we should not eliminate the alternative to hereditary succession that is ALREADY IN the law at the same time as eliminating hereditary succession. Vote NON on RZ28!

For the Cosa, I plan on voting for the League of Centre Conservatives (I’m even on their Cosa candidate list), and encourage you to consider doing so as well. They don’t have much of a platform other than supporting a non-figurehead monarchy and the importance of a meaningful opposition that will at least say “let’s slow down and think about this.” They’re the only real alternative to the radical reformism of the FreeDems.

Note that you can still vote by email using your ballot, on the Chancery’s web site, or on Witt, but Witt has MOVED. It is now at http://wittenberg.talossa.com. So if you want to vote on Witt you need to make sure you’ve created an account on the new Witt. If you want to vote by one of the other means you need to use the PSC included in the ballot that was emailed to you by the Chancery. If you haven’t received a ballot (check your spam folder!) you should email the SoS right away at talossachancery@gmail.com.

Talossa needs you, so vote now! If you don’t, there’s a good chance I’ll start harassing you individually in the next couple of days. ¡Sa viva el Regeu, es sa viva el Regipäts!

Cresti

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Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: The underground RUMP
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 03:30:32 PM »
Quote from: Cresti
I think I oppose all of the referenda on the ballot

Cresti ended up supporting the Judiciary Amendment, which he voted against as an MC, so we have to give him the credit of being able to change his mind.

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Offline C. M. Siervicül

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Re: The underground RUMP
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 07:15:59 PM »
Cresti ended up supporting the Judiciary Amendment, which he voted against as an MC, so we have to give him the credit of being able to change his mind.
I haven’t been an MC in years. I did vote against the predecessor bill to the Judiciary Amendment as a senator back during the 52nd Cosa, but was not in the Ziu for this bill. Also, King John vetoed the earlier bill that I voted against, but not this one.

My initial inclination was to vote against all the amendments, but I ended up deciding to vote for the judiciary one. This was partly in recognition of the length to which Viteu went trying to accommodate concerns raised about the previous bill, and partly a decision to give him the benefit of the doubt on his “magnum opus” (as it were) as he leaves the Ziu and moves onto the bench.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 08:05:16 PM by C. M. Siervicül »