Ceadfă del Ziu: Restoration of National Honour

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

What are you afraid of?

I'm afraid, if Ben doesn't accept that he acted like an asshole back then, exactly the same thing will happen when he gets back. I know that people can change over decades; I certainly have, and I have acted like all kind of bodily orifices in my time, and I like to think I've changed my ways. But I would require long-term evidence of such behaviour before I can feel comfortable. Such as: "Landing Pier style access for a number of months, just to show he plays nice these days".

Talossa is of course a voluntary entity, and I'm sure a lot of people here might prefer to have Ben back than me around, and they might just get that wish. But this isn't a "Ben's going to overthrow the state" thing (although I believe there are some people who'd love the restoration of his monarchy!). It's a "Ben will make Talossan life intolerable for me, personally".

I haven't forgotten that MY previous efforts to rejoin, or even look in on, this Kingdom (Landing Pier style) were unceremoniously and silently rejected

I don't know what this is referring to.

[Breneir Tzaracomprada]

The concept of "death of the author" really applies here.  His lived reality, decades in the making, has pretty clearly demonstrated that he can't control what Talossa is, that his creation does just fine without him.  It seems likely to outlive him.  I think he'll be happier about that than anything else.

With a populace as wary of him as modern RT seems to be, such machinations (should they even exist!) are unlikely in the extreme to succeed.  His hands will be on none of the levers of power.

This is an important point. Further, his ability to gain any new power are dependent on successful efforts at reconciliation. If there are concerns about potential disruptive behavior on Witt then one would simply remember we now have The Consequences Act passed last term.

[Mximo Malt]

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

See, he gets it! Btw, I'm something of a language nerd myself, which is why I'm trying to find the origin of most Talossan words for my literary Latin experiment.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

knowing who the first trans person he was ever exposed to was, back in the formative 1980's, one of the weird-even-by-other-pagan's-estimation pagans around the university

Ha ha, so you mean that one Wiccan who poisoned himself against that whole faith was also trans? No wonder he hated me with the heat of 1000 suns...

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Right, I understand that. But even in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

[Mximo Malt]

"Promotion" is a slippery concept, especially in the commercialized internet age.  Using Talossan for promotion was a feature to mention, in order to to attract other language nerds, to say "hey look, we have something other micronations don't!", promotion in that sense.

Right, I understand that. But even in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

I understand it's a constructed language in reality, but it feels like a real historical language, it's amazing!

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

The quot

even in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

The quote I remember from the time was Ben quoting from some fact-sheet he wrote in 1981 saying "Talossan is only spoken by inhabitants of Talossa", and using that as an argument suggesting that it was impermissible for anyone else, i.e. me, to learn or speak it.

This is language submitted to political/state objectives and I consider it improper, like Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk.

[Mximo Malt]

The quot

even in that sense, reducing the language to just a means of promotion is, in my opinion as a language nerd, doing it a massive disservice. And I also understand Sir Tomás' upset: I, too, wouldn't like to be told that I've spend literal years of my life studying and advancing a promotional tool.

The quote I remember from the time was Ben quoting from some fact-sheet he wrote in 1981 saying "Talossan is only spoken by inhabitants of Talossa", and using that as an argument suggesting that it was impermissible for anyone else, i.e. me, to learn or speak it.

This is language submitted to political/state objectives and I consider it improper, like Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk.

Respectfully, Madame Schivă, I believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa. It kinda sounds like you're not allowed to speak Hebrew outside of "Israel", well, לא יש לי בושה להיות דובר אחד של השפה עברית!

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

I believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

[Mximo Malt]

I believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Va c'hupă, S:reu Tafial! Point aside, I'm not sure there's much he can do about it now since we all speak it without his consent 🤣

Maybe he'll be happy that we're still using it and take it as the greatest form of national pride! That's how I see our Glheþ, as an expression of our Talossan identity!

[King Txec]

I believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Va c'hupă, S:reu Tafial! Point aside, I'm not sure there's much he can do about it now since we all speak it without his consent 🤣

Maybe he'll be happy that we're still using it and take it as the greatest form of national pride! That's how I see our Glheþ, as an expression of our Talossan identity!

The point could be made that el Ghelþ is still spoken with the consent of the king as the throne is still occupied and has been so since his former Majesty abdicated. (Though there have been some regencies along the way).

-Txec R

[Mximo Malt]

I believe the point RBM was trying to make is that Talossan was only well-known by people in Talossa, not necessarily that Talossan was "forbidden" from being spoken outside Talossa.

No, that was exactly the argument he was making. Namely, that people who are not already citizens need some sort of permission to be able to learn and speak Talossan, lest they commit plagiarism and copyright infringement. You can read that in the links I posted as source.

Va c'hupă, S:reu Tafial! Point aside, I'm not sure there's much he can do about it now since we all speak it without his consent 🤣

Maybe he'll be happy that we're still using it and take it as the greatest form of national pride! That's how I see our Glheþ, as an expression of our Talossan identity!

The point could be made that el Ghelþ is still spoken with the consent of the king as the throne is still occupied and has been so since his former Majesty abdicated. (Though there have been some regencies along the way).

-Txec R

I understand that the throne is occupied as you are living proof of that, sorry if it sounded confusing, Majestas.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

like Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk

Irrelevant but any part of Ukraine east of the Dnepr speaks Russian arleady anyway, also inhabited by Russians. Ukrainian is spoken instead anywhere west of the Dnepr, also inhabited by actual Ukrainians.

This is not true at all, and in fact is Russian propaganda. Eastern Ukrainians are not "Russians" just because Russian (or surzhyk, Russian-Ukrainian pidgin) is their first language. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who comes from Kryvyi Riv in south-eastern Ukraine, speaks Russian as his first language. Most of Ireland speaks English as their first language but they kind of take murderous exception if you say they're English.

[Mximo Malt]

like Russia trying to eliminate the Ukrainian language in occupied Donetsk

Irrelevant but any part of Ukraine east of the Dnepr speaks Russian arleady anyway, also inhabited by Russians. Ukrainian is spoken instead anywhere west of the Dnepr, also inhabited by actual Ukrainians.

This is not true at all, and in fact is Russian propaganda. Eastern Ukrainians are not "Russians" just because Russian (or surzhyk, Russian-Ukrainian pidgin) is their first language. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who comes from Kryvyi Riv in south-eastern Ukraine, speaks Russian as his first language. Most of Ireland speaks English as their first language but they kind of take murderous exception if you say they're English.

I really hate that part about Ireland...

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

I really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

[Mximo Malt]

I really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Well, then we would still have the same problems except that except Anglos being complacent, itd be Francophones. It wouldn't actually solve anything.

[Tric’hard Lenxheir]

I really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

[Mximo Malt]

I really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

I'd lean towards Russian (it sounds so pretty to me)

[Tric’hard Lenxheir]

I really hate that part about Ireland...

So do I, and so do many Irish, but this is what happens when, after independence, Ireland was still a poor country dependent on labour migration to the UK or the US and so speaking English was still an economic necessity.

My sympathy is still with Ireland's first ambassador to the League of Nation, who always addressed that body in French, because he could not speak Irish and he'd be damned if he'd speak English.

Yk I really wish everyone spoke French rather than English as the global lingua franca (and Gaeilge as the main language in Éire)

Give it a few more years and what's left of humanity will be speaking either Russian or Chinese

I'd lean towards Russian (it sounds so pretty to me)

I doubt we will get to choose