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Author Topic: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment  (Read 165 times)

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« on: December 16, 2019, 11:30:39 AM »
WHEREAS Interest in Talossa is not hereditary, and

WHEREAS The best person to become the next Monarch is usually not going to be the child of the previous one



THEREFORE Article II, Section 1 of the Organic Law, which currently reads:
Quote
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional, hereditary Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.
is amended to read:
Quote
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

FURTHERMORE Article II, Sections 3, 4, and 5 are repealed.

FURTHERMORE A new Article II, Section 3 is added, which reads:
Quote
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of any King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency pending the election of a new King. The Ziu may, by a vote of two-thirds in each House, elect a King, who shall succeed to the Throne immediately upon ratification of his election by a majority of the people in a referendum to be held for that sole purpose.

FURTHERMORE Article II, Section 6 is renumbered to Article II, Section 4.

FURTHERMORE Article II, Section 7, which currently reads:
Quote
From time to time, a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent) may be appointed, who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. A King who has not attained the age of eighteen years, which age is declared to be the legal majority of the Sovereign, may exercise his royal powers only through a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency.

is renumbered to Article II, Section 5 and amended to read:
Quote
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

FURTHERMORE Article II, Sections 8, 9, and 10 are repealed

FURTHERMORE Article II, Section 11 is renumbered to Article II, Section 6


Ureu q'estadra så:
HM Government, represented by Ian Plätschisch (Distain)

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 11:36:58 AM »
The above is a little hard to digest, so here would be the amended text of Article II:

Section 1
Quote
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
Quote
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
Quote
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of any King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency pending the election of a new King. The Ziu may, by a vote of two-thirds in each House, elect a King, who shall succeed to the Throne immediately upon ratification of his election by a majority of the people in a referendum to be held for that sole purpose.

Section 4
Quote
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be deposed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is considered deposed and the succession occurs according to Section 3, above.

Section 5
Quote
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
Quote
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 11:39:35 AM by Ian Plätschisch »

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 11:37:56 AM »
Also note that this amendment would amend the new version of the Organic Law

Offline Magniloqueu Épiqeu Ac’hlerglünä da Lhiun

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 04:48:31 PM »
I wonder whether electing a Monarch should really be a “Ziu → Ratification”-style process.

Might we want to involve the knighthood? Maybe they come together to choose a new King that has to be ratified by the populace? Or something?
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Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 05:07:26 PM »
I wonder whether electing a Monarch should really be a “Ziu → Ratification”-style process.

Might we want to involve the knighthood? Maybe they come together to choose a new King that has to be ratified by the populace? Or something?
Interesting to consider (Right now, this amendment keeps everything else status quo)

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2020, 07:59:55 PM »
What do people think of this?

Online Miestrâ Schiva, UrN

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2020, 08:52:59 PM »
Well, I'm totally opposed to giving "the Knighthood" any extra votes. That just gives the King the ability to choose his own electorate.


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"IS INACTIVITY BAD? I THINK NOT!" - Lord Hooligan

Offline Lüc

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2020, 07:38:39 AM »
It would be interesting if we had our own Conclave-style process, separate from the Ziu, which could elect a King with a 2/3 vote or something similar (maybe 3/5 and then 1/2 after a number of ballots).

Not sure how we would elect such a body, though, so here's some ideas:

1. By seniority groups: we divide up the population into N equal groups based on date of citizenship, and each group elects X representatives to the Conclave (example N=4 and X=5, we have 20 representatives and roughly 38 electors per group);

2. 8 MCs (proportional-ish between parties) + 8 Senators + 5 Justices + SoS + 2 other senior positions = 24 electors

I'm indifferent enough on the Conclave "electing" or "nominating for approval" the future King. Either works for me I think.
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Online Miestrâ Schiva, UrN

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2020, 04:37:51 PM »
The simplistic answer would be: the Ziu on a one-individual-one-vote basis.

A more complex answer would be the Ziu + provincial delegates, on a one-individual-one-vote basis.

Final decision would have to be approved by the nation by 2/3 in referendum.


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Offline Glüc

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2020, 11:01:50 AM »
I'm really not convinced this is a good idea at all.

But if we absolutely have to, I think we should avoid any of the following:

- Anything that results in citizens joining thinking that they might one day become King.
- Anyone campaigning to become King.
- Anyone taking up civil service duties because it might make them King someday.
- Any parties campaigning to make their members King.
- Electing anyone we are not sure will be around for a long time (I can honestly think of very few Talossans who have been as consistently present for such a long time as King John). The best way to ensure this also means not...
- Electing anyone who hasn't already been around for a long time.
- A method that is so straightforward (or I guess simplistic) that it essentially turns the King into just another elected office.
- A method that results in someone being elected based on the hype of the day rather than long term appreciation (remember this is supposed to be an appointment for life.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 03:12:28 AM by Glüc »

Offline Açafat del Val

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2020, 01:49:49 PM »
I very much support this amendment, though Glüc has a point that the throne, while we have it, should not be politicized.

Perhaps we could amend this amendment so that the Ziu cannot choose a successor who has not been a citizen for X years? That alone should prevent phonies. 5 years? 7 years?

Let us not live in a fantasy: the ascension of John to the throne was political, insofar as any decision to elevate someone to a lifetime role is inherently political. It's not practicable to try to prevent "someone being elected based on the hype of the day rather than a long-term appreciation"; that's just the nature of the beast.

The risk of a bad ascension to the throne is worth removing the hereditary status of the King.

Online Miestrâ Schiva, UrN

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2020, 04:16:58 PM »
I think we should avoid any of the following:

- Anything that results in citizens joining thinking that they might one day become King.
- Anyone campaigning to become King.
- Anyone taking up civil service duties because it might make them King someday.
- Any parties campaigning to make their members King.

Agreed.

Quote
- Electing anyone we are not sure will be around for a long time (I can honestly think of very few Talossans who have been as consistently present for such a long time as King John). The best way to ensure this also means not...
- Electing anyone who hasn't already been around for a long time.

John had been a Talossan for 2-3 years before he became King. This was one of the main reasons why the Republic were aghast to find out that he was being proposed for the Slightly Battered Throne, despite his obvious qualities, considering he was a newcomer compared to the people who founded the Republic.

Quote
- A method that results in someone being elected based on the hype of the day rather than long term appreciation (remember this is supposed to be an appointment for life.)

See above. Many of the things you're complaining about are how the incumbent got there.


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Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 04:00:46 PM »
I'm really not convinced this is a good idea at all.

But if we absolutely have to, I think we should avoid any of the following:

- Anything that results in citizens joining thinking that they might one day become King.
- Anyone campaigning to become King.
- Anyone taking up civil service duties because it might make them King someday.
- Any parties campaigning to make their members King.
- Electing anyone we are not sure will be around for a long time (I can honestly think of very few Talossans who have been as consistently present for such a long time as King John). The best way to ensure this also means not...
- Electing anyone who hasn't already been around for a long time.
- A method that is so straightforward (or I guess simplistic) that it essentially turns the King into just another elected office.
- A method that results in someone being elected based on the hype of the day rather than long term appreciation (remember this is supposed to be an appointment for life.)

I agree that if any of this happened it would not be great, but it would still be better than the current situation, which is a Prince of Prospect who has not demonstrated one iota of interest in Talossa for years.

Offline Ian Plätschisch

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Re: The Non-Hereditary Monarchy Amendment
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 04:02:21 PM »
Are all of the proposals for more complex election processes more along the lines of "woah dude, what if we..." or should I actually incorporate them into the amendment.

I kept the election process the same in order to avoid making a huge omnibus change.