The past six months have seen a remarkable number of instances where citizens reference struggles with their mental health. Obviously COVID and economic difficulties are implicated somewhat. And I aware that none of us, insofar as I am aware, is a mental health professional but that does not mean we are unable to be sources of empathy and compassion for one another. The education of our personal experiences, while not qualifying us to be truly effective clinical providers, does allow us to provide the ear and eyes of someone who knows the path the other speaks of.
There will be inevitable, necessary considerations on privacy concerns which may vary by person. But in this thread and maybe a freestanding group in the future I would like to guage public interest in convening a mental health support group.
If it is warranted and advisable, then what are concerns that need to be addressed before launch?
How would such a group deal with the fact that the way Talossans deal with each other - especially in politics - is the cause of a hell of a lot of distress and mental health symptoms? And that - I am going to assume - no-one on either side of politics is going to admit that they're doing anything wrong? "When we condescend to you, attempt to shame you, call you names, talk about you like you're a wicked person behaving unethically, it's because you deserve it and we're doing nothing wrong."
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on August 25, 2022, 07:23:07 PM
How would such a group deal with the fact that the way Talossans deal with each other - especially in politics - is the cause of a hell of a lot of distress and mental health symptoms? And that - I am going to assume - no-one on either side of politics is going to admit that they're doing anything wrong? "When we condescend to you, attempt to shame you, call you names, talk about you like you're a wicked person behaving unethically, it's because you deserve it and we're doing nothing wrong."
You've raised a perfect point of discussion for the group if that is a major source of distress, Miestra. I say that as someone who has also been on the receiving end of some remarkable vitriol. Maybe a first group discussion might center on how to bring the temperature down in partisan politics.
@Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir you have been open about your mental health. I was thinking of you as someone who might participate in this effort. Would you be interested?
As someone who has dealt with depression most of my life (including a suicide attempt) I think this could be a good idea. However, it could also lead to bigger issues. This will sound nuts but when I am feeling a little depressed and someone tries to "cheer me up" it actually makes me feel worse. If this idea helps one person through a difficult period though, it is worth trying.
It is a major source of distress, and it has been for a long time - not just for me, but I can only tell my own story. What the King said in his recent "apology" actually struck a huge chord with me. I too ceased to find anything fun in Talossa ages ago, and I'm only here because of "duty", the fact that I can't live with myself unless I do what I say I'm going to do - and to pick up the ball if my political colleagues happen to drop it, because that's part of my duty. I have two Dandelions and I had to admit a while ago that I couldn't imagine encouraging them to become actively Talossan because it's so nasty. I have been telling people that I intend to withdraw from Talossa - partly or wholly - at the end of this term for that very reason.
The problem with any group of the kind you're suggesting would mean it would require us to sit and let our emotional defences down in front of people whom - subjectively - we consider to be the very causes of our mental distress, and unrepentant about being so. And I know for a fact that more than one Talossan considers me to be that person, for them. There is a lack of basic trust to be dealt with.
Quote from: Tric'hard Lenxheir on August 25, 2022, 07:49:46 PM
As someone who has dealt with depression most of my life (including a suicide attempt) I think this could be a good idea. However, it could also lead to bigger issues. This will sound nuts but when I am feeling a little depressed and someone tries to "cheer me up" it actually makes me feel worse. If this idea helps one person through a difficult period though, it is worth trying.
First, thank you for sharing those details from your personal experience. Consideration of those bigger issues is important. The intent here is earnest and good but as is well known good intentions are not always interpreted as such nor do they always lead to the intended outcome.
I suspect maintaining an inclusive and unpressurized environment will be key.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on August 25, 2022, 07:51:14 PM
It is a major source of distress, and it has been for a long time - not just for me, but I can only tell my own story. What the King said in his recent "apology" actually struck a huge chord with me. I too ceased to find anything fun in Talossa ages ago, and I'm only here because of "duty", the fact that I can't live with myself unless I do what I say I'm going to do - and to pick up the ball if my political colleagues happen to drop it, because that's part of my duty. I have two Dandelions and I had to admit a while ago that I couldn't imagine encouraging them to become actively Talossan because it's so nasty. I have been telling people that I intend to withdraw from Talossa - partly or wholly - at the end of this term for that very reason.
The problem with any group of the kind you're suggesting would mean it would require us to sit and let our emotional defences down in front of people whom - subjectively - we consider to be the very causes of our mental distress, and unrepentant about being so. And I know for a fact that more than one Talossan considers me to be that person, for them. There is a lack of basic trust to be dealt with.
Miestra, I am only one person but I can tell you here publicly that I am willing to put down my emotional defenses if it means you participating in this group. In order to rebuild the trust, that I agree with you is very low, we are going to need these kinds of opportunities to be nurtured. Things will probably be halting initially but with practice and patience I believe that there are reasons for us being here together that are the surface on which trust can be reborn.
I appreciate these courteous words and we will see how things develop.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 25, 2022, 07:56:58 PM
In order to rebuild the trust
That is really the key here. Not to intrude and bring up politics, but many people don't trust you because of how you have conducted yourself in the past. Rebuilding trust must include you giving some account of those actions, and making credible commitments, not just vague platitudes.
I'm providing this feedback not to take a dump on your idea, but to give you an honest assessment to help make it work.
I've dealt with (or in some cases completely avoided) mental health issues my whole life. Depression, addiction and Gender Identity Disorder are things I struggle with. Most of the time it's manageable, other times it's a living hell.
We all struggle with something and it's nice to have someone to talk to, even when we think we don't want someone by our side.
I think this could be really beneficial to Talossans who are struggling. I'll help out in whatever way I can.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on August 25, 2022, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 25, 2022, 07:56:58 PM
In order to rebuild the trust
That is really the key here. Not to intrude and bring up politics, but many people don't trust you because of how you have conducted yourself in the past. Rebuilding trust must include you giving some account of those actions, and making credible commitments, not just vague platitudes.
I'm providing this feedback not to take a dump on your idea, but to give you an honest assessment to help make it work.
To be clear, the lack of trust based on words and actions, Ian, is shared. And we can share examples until the cows come home if you like. The burden and expectation of commitments is shared by you and anyone else involved in this initiative. There are no clean hands here.
So, who is willing to come to the table for genuine and unflinching empathy and compassion rather than accusation and political way-laying? Are we ready to do the work now or not?
I think I am demonstrating my willingness to do so by starting this group and promising to Miestra to lay down emotional defenses. It looks like Miestra is considering it. Tric'hard might be in. Audrada is up for it. And Ian chimed in but appears noncommittal.
Anyone else?
With respect, Brenéir, just this morning on Discord you responded to a rather nasty allegation aimed towards Ian P in particular with a "LMAO". That has dented my confidence that you understand what is necessary to do the kind of work you want to do. I honestly think this work is doomed from the start if people don't even understand how they might be, personally, making the lack of trust and the nasty atmosphere worse.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 25, 2022, 07:56:58 PM
To be clear, the lack of trust based on words and actions, Ian, is shared. And we can share examples until the cows come home if you like. The burden and expectation of commitments is shared by you and anyone else involved in this initiative. There are no clean hands here.
@Miestră Schivă, UrN it is almost like we have already started now. I am not going to give up. :)
You asked me to be willing to let down my emotional defenses. I am now asking you to do the same.
Your feelings on this are valid and I respect them.
And I apologize if that post led you to doubt my sincerity and commitment to the rebuilding of trust.
Now to explain but not excuse as I believe a deepened mutual understanding is vital as we move forward.
My post on the Discord channel was to laugh because I was really tickled at the meme of Jeb Bush and the "please clap" reference (Honestly I am still laughing at that meme right now) and also the criticism of a change in government policy. I was not aware of that so it came as a surprise to me. But it had more to do with his deft meme usage and reference to a relatively obscure but memorable moment in recent American election campaigns.
Miestra, when I first saw your post I instantly assumed you were just coming up with a reason to not do something you were already skeptical of. But then I stopped, took some breaths, and tried to imagine and then remembered you as a mother of two dandelions, as a musician, as a speaker of lots of languages, as a New Zealander/Aotearoa (one of my favorite countries on the planet), and as a Talossan. After doing so, it became easier to think more of your feelings than my first reaction. I hope that my explanation and apology will keep us on the path to greater trust. And I hope you will start to think of me as more than whatever I exist as in your mind now.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 26, 2022, 02:14:42 AM
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on August 25, 2022, 09:37:48 PM
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 25, 2022, 07:56:58 PM
In order to rebuild the trust
That is really the key here. Not to intrude and bring up politics, but many people don't trust you because of how you have conducted yourself in the past. Rebuilding trust must include you giving some account of those actions, and making credible commitments, not just vague platitudes.
I'm providing this feedback not to take a dump on your idea, but to give you an honest assessment to help make it work.
To be clear, the lack of trust based on words and actions, Ian, is shared. And we can share examples until the cows come home if you like. The burden and expectation of commitments is shared by you and anyone else involved in this initiative. There are no clean hands here.
So, who is willing to come to the table for genuine and unflinching empathy and compassion rather than accusation and political way-laying? Are we ready to do the work now or not?
I think I am demonstrating my willingness to do so by starting this group and promising to Miestra to lay down emotional defenses. It looks like Miestra is considering it. Tric'hard might be in. Audrada is up for it. And Ian chimed in but appears noncommittal.
Anyone else?
You are very skilled at saying nothing in many words.
I don't speak for anyone but myself, but before I could engage with anyone in this sort of group, I would
need to get into the specifics of why I don't trust them first. I imagine you would as well. Part of that unfortunately involves some blame. Handwaving about "genuine and unflinching empathy and compassion" accomplishes nothing because it has no credibility as of right now.
I should clarify that I am not interested in participating regardless of the friction between us; I thank God every day that I have close family and friends I can lean on. I am opining anyway because I think many others feel the way I do and I'm legitimately trying to help.
That being said, I would happy to hash out our differences with you, publicly or privately, for the purpose of "clearing the air" between us. Just know that I am not immediately going to tell you that everything is great.
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on August 26, 2022, 08:28:48 PMYou are very skilled at saying nothing in many words.
Unfortunately Ian, this negated everything that came after it.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 26, 2022, 08:48:31 PM
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on August 26, 2022, 08:28:48 PMYou are very skilled at saying nothing in many words.
Unfortunately Ian, this negated everything that came after it.
Come on. That was a mild poke. If I had this standard, I could be blissfully ignorant of everything the Opposition has said so far this term.
Quote from: Audrada Roibeardet on August 25, 2022, 11:38:17 PM
I've dealt with (or in some cases completely avoided) mental health issues my whole life. Depression, addiction and Gender Identity Disorder are things I struggle with. Most of the time it's manageable, other times it's a living hell.
We all struggle with something and it's nice to have someone to talk to, even when we think we don't want someone by our side.
I think this could be really beneficial to Talossans who are struggling. I'll help out in whatever way I can.
@Audrada Roibeardet thank you for sharing your struggle here. For me, it has been Depression, Anxiety, and OCD. With OCD being the primary struggle every day. OCD is difficult because many people will boil it down to being high-strung or mildly eccentric. When it can be disempowering and embarrassing. It can also be the cause of some shame especially when family notice it and express helplessness in their desire to help.
Also, a quick note for anyone here, I can be an oversharer because I tend to believe that this kind of openness is an antidote to stigma.
Again, thank you for your courteous words below. I accept your explanation and sorry for misinterpreting. In that situation I was dumbfounded by what seemed to be real anger and resentment coming from someone else whom I considered a friend.
The problem I see is that Talossa has a long, long,
very long history of being an extremely toxic environment full of bullying and abuse. During the last period of King Robert I's rule you would actually call it a cult. And in a way, that is still with us. I admire a concern for people's mental health, but without a wider discussion of how mental ill health is being caused by our swamp-like political climate and ways of dealing with each other, this will make about as much difference as raking the leaves over a toxic waste dump.
I think the problem is that you can never tell what someone's "triggers" might be. But when people are political opponents - or just don't like each other - but are stuck in a situation together over years, they learn what upsets people and how to get a gratifying emotional reaction from them. Like an old married couple, you know the idea? Take my case. You won't be surprised to hear that depression and anxiety are constant companions for me, as well. I wouldn't precisely describe myself as OCD, but because of my abusive upbringing I do recognize that I have problems with perfectionism, and hypervigilance when it comes to threats to my sense of self.
Now: there is a certain Talossan, well known to both of us, who has a pattern of behaviour over more than a decade by calling me a liar, a cheat, corrupt, while himself telling what I consider to be outright lies about me, my motivations, and my principles. Because of my own abusive upbringing, that kind of language triggers panic reactions in me, and I'm trying to train myself out of just turning a firehose of rage back in response. I've had to misuse prescription medication to be able to sleep in some of these situations - I've had to just walk away from Talossa on other situations, and it looks like I'll have to do that again.
Now: how would a mental health empathy group deal with that? Would it tell me: suck it up, you deserve what you get? Or would it tell me to just leave the country if I can't handle it? What could it actually
do about a situation in Talossa which ruins my mental health?
But on the other side, there is certainly a problem with people being so thin-skinned that they can't handle honest criticism or even mild joking.Do you see the real problem I'm getting at here? That on one hand we have to be able to take our lumps; but on the other hand actual abuse, slander, and deliberately "pressing people's buttons" have become standard weapons of political struggle. I can't imagine any mental health or empathy will help as long as we EITHER (a) don't know how much we're hurting people; (b) know we're hurting people, and we do it anyway because "they deserve it/it's funny/it'll win my political party support".
I want you to find one of the copies of KR1's
Ár Päts on the Wiki and read what it says about me in particular. Imagine me putting up with
that, and still coming back to Talossa. Nothing I've had in the years since has been worse - but it is
poison. I am trying to get my point across without turning it into another political headbutting session. I hope you get my point.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 26, 2022, 06:07:13 PM
@Miestră Schivă, UrN it is almost like we have already started now. I am not going to give up. :)
You asked me to be willing to let down my emotional defenses. I am now asking you to do the same.
Your feelings on this are valid and I respect them.
And I apologize if that post led you to doubt my sincerity and commitment to the rebuilding of trust.
Now to explain but not excuse as I believe a deepened mutual understanding is vital as we move forward.
My post on the Discord channel was to laugh because I was really tickled at the meme of Jeb Bush and the "please clap" reference (Honestly I am still laughing at that meme right now) and also the criticism of a change in government policy. I was not aware of that so it came as a surprise to me. But it had more to do with his deft meme usage and reference to a relatively obscure but memorable moment in recent American election campaigns.
Miestra, when I first saw your post I instantly assumed you were just coming up with a reason to not do something you were already skeptical of. But then I stopped, took some breaths, and tried to imagine and then remembered you as a mother of two dandelions, as a musician, as a speaker of lots of languages, as a New Zealander/Aotearoa (one of my favorite countries on the planet), and as a Talossan. After doing so, it became easier to think more of your feelings than my first reaction. I hope that my explanation and apology will keep us on the path to greater trust. And I hope you will start to think of me as more than whatever I exist as in your mind now.
I think that sometimes we forget that on the other side of the screen are real people with real lives, real trauma, real unresolved personal pain, etc.
Quote from: Dr. Txec dal Nordselvă, GST on August 27, 2022, 12:41:35 AM
I think that sometimes we forget that on the other side of the screen are real people with real lives, real trauma, real unresolved personal pain, etc.
The is so true here in Talossa and in so many other places online. My motto in my profile is from a famous manifesto written by Bertrand Russell and Albert Einstein and it says "Remember your humanity and forget the rest." With respect interactions online perhaps it should read Remember THEIR humanity and forget the rest.
I appreciate Miestra and Breneir responses and I believe both of them are talking without a mask that they usually wear when they speak to each other. I find that refreshing.
I believe that is a the second time I've seen a real exchange of opposing ideas in a polite manner in my 70 days in here.
I understand being opponents for many years has a big impact on how you perceive someone else's words but I believe that doesn't give you the right to deliberately push people's buttons and call it "mild poke" while they're trying to achieve something good. Also, saying that you won't participate because "thank god" "you have friends and family" is something wild to say (I mean I feel like that sometimes but sometimes I don't.). I also understand we sometimes forget there's real people behind the screen as the Secretary said. I amsorry for every time I did that.
I see this thread as a try to cool down a few degrees the political temperature in Talossa. I will always welcome and encourage and try to help with that. Others too, I know.
As the "LMAO" situation, that reminded me of an exercise I made two of my students do where they almost fought each other while doing a video in front of the actors.
I made them do a list of all the things they have against the other, every time the other made them hurt and things they cannot forgive about each other. I gave them three days and thigs were amazing because they both got a list of like 3-4 things and half of them were misunderstadings. Both of them apologized and agreed to disagree in the other one. I believe that was one of the moments that I will forever treasure in my heart as a teacher. One of them flunked the class two months later lol, tho but that's not the point.
Maybe something like that can help cooling Talossa down because we all have lives and we all have things to do outside of here and we sure as hell don't have time to hold grudges, or at least we should aim to not do that.
Try to literally write down every grudge you hold against someone. That thing really helps when it is written down.
Maybe showing it to the other person (when both are cooled down and agreed to be polite) can have a tremendous impact.
That unfortunately is not related to the Mental Health Support Group but I think its aim is the same: to feel better and have better relationships with each other.
Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 27, 2022, 06:07:47 PM
I understand being opponents for many years has a big impact on how you perceive someone else's words but I believe that doesn't give you the right to deliberately push people's buttons and call it "mild poke" while they're trying to achieve something good. Also, saying that you won't participate because "thank god" "you have friends and family" is something wild to say (I mean I feel like that sometimes but sometimes I don't.). I also understand we sometimes forget there's real people behind the screen as the Secretary said. I amsorry for every time I did that.
I really don't appreciate this for two reasons:
1. When I criticized Brenier, I was not doing it just to push his buttons. I was pinpointing a real issue with this group that needed to be addressed. You can agree with me or not, or think I should have been nicer, but I stand by what I said. I sincerely believe Breneir can only "achieve something good" with this group if he considers my critique.
2. Breneir was point-blank asking me if I would join; saying no without explanation would have been unsatisfactory. I decided to take the opportunity to make a sincere expression of gratitude; apparently you are not inclined to give me the same grace you are giving others in this discussion. Certainly I am not inclined to share anything more.
Anyhow, this discussion is leading me to one of two conclusions, neither of which are good:
1. The TNC and the FreeDems both sling mud, but no one else notices when the TNC does it because they camouflage it.
2. The FreeDems really are the only party that sling mud, in which case I should leave Talossa immediately because I am not doing myself nor anyone else any favors.
Telling people that you won't join a Mental Health Support Group because thank god you have friends implies people needing Mental Health Support don't have friends. Perhaps I'm assuming wrong and if that's the case I understand.
When people communicate through text it's always difficult to get the full picture. Our past experiencies interfere and that's why I took it that way, maybe. And that's why Talossa is here. And that's why you only get bad conclusions, probably.
I try to not look at things through the TNCvsFreeDems lens. Perhaps you are projecting something in my comments? I honestly appreciated Miestra and the Secretary's comments.
I know all comments are tied to interpretation by the reader. I considered myself a neutral bystander reacting to every comment by itself, not taking sides.
Also, what an odd conclusions. I was going to finish this post with "I shall abstain from commenting any more if it really makes you consider you staying in the very country you run, PM" but I know you are talking from a TNC-FreeDems pov and that's not really a comment to take seriously. Or at least that's why I tell myself haha I mean I can't listen to a read word.
Also I believe I'm exposing myself in this post and exposed myself in the last one. I believe that is good. It means I'm willing to trust. I hope you can truts someone outside of your party later, truly. (And I know it won't be easy because... well, lots of stuff).
I believe that a future better than the present is achievable.
Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 27, 2022, 08:05:26 PM
Telling people that you won't join a Mental Health Support Group because thank god you have friends implies people needing Mental Health Support don't have friends. Perhaps I'm assuming wrong and if that's the case I understand.
I was acknowledging that many people have family and friends who are not of any support to them. I am very grateful not to be in that position.
Quote
I try to not look at things through the TNCvsFreeDems lens. Perhaps you are projecting something in my comments? I honestly appreciated Miestra and the Secretary's comments.
I know all comments are tied to interpretation by the reader. I considered myself a neutral bystander reacting to every comment by itself, not taking sides.
Also, what an odd conclusions. I was going to finish this post with "I shall abstain from commenting any more if it really makes you consider you staying in the very country you run, PM" but I know you are talking from a TNC-FreeDems pov and that's not really a comment to take seriously. Or at least that's why I tell myself haha I mean I can't listen to a read word.
I take you at your word that you believe you are a neutral observer. However, the fact that it always seems you are calling out particular people, but not others, for pushing people's buttons, when I think everyone is doing it, means one of two things:
1. You are not actually as neutral as you think you are
2. I am just imagining that other people are trying to push
my buttons, but I am
actually the only one pushing other people's buttons, in which case I should at least withdraw from politics and make everyone happier.
QuoteAlso I believe I'm exposing myself in this post and exposed myself in the last one. I believe that is good. It means I'm willing to trust. I hope you can truts someone outside of your party later, truly. (And I know it won't be easy because... well, lots of stuff).
It may surprise you to learn that Dame Miestra and I were political opponents for most of the past seven years; I only joined the FreeDems last year. However, my relationship with her was (usually) nothing but cordial and constructive during that time. I assure you I am capable of trusting people from outside my party.
It may also surprise you that Breneir and I were in the same party on multiple occasions, first in the Moderate Radical Party of Talossa between 2015-2016, and then the League of Centre Conservatives from 2020-2021. Up until last year I always got along with him (and Baron Alexandreu, for that matter) just fine. I hope we can get back to that.
Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 27, 2022, 06:07:47 PM
I appreciate Miestra and Breneir responses and I believe both of them are talking without a mask that they usually wear when they speak to each other. I find that refreshing.
Problem is - and Ian P is pointing this out as well - that your 70 days in Talossa is perhaps not giving you sufficient background to interpret what you're seeing. I'm trying my best to be honest/cordial with Breneir - and to his credit he appears to be reciprocating - but as Ian P has rightly pointed out, there is stuff that goes back years, what a Scientologist would call "breakdowns in Affinity, Reality and Communication". And my communication with Breneir in this thread hasn't even scraped the surface of that.
There was something that happened, whereby Breneir and Ian P turned from party colleagues to firm antagonists. To my mind, that's never even been sufficiently explained, let alone sufficiently dealt with, and it is the
underlying reason why our two major parties currently have such an antagonistic relationship. Do you know what that thing was? If not, perhaps you should find out before commenting.
But: it goes the other way as well. Ian P is not an outlier in being a former political opponent of mine who is now an ally. The SoS, now our Party President, was an opponent, Senator Grischün was an opponent, and Justice V was quite a
nasty opponent (man he was rude to me, lol). The short version of that story is that a lot of people who used to wholeheartedly defend the monarchy stopped doing so as the Monarch's active involvement in Talossa decreased.
The point of why I've been trying to delicately engage Breneir is that IMHO the basis for an "empathy network" has to be trust, and that trust can't exist in a situation of heightened partisanship. IMHO the only way to take down partisan heat is "truth and reconciliation" - that both sides have to admit they've done things that have hurt others. Ian P is criticising your "neutrality" as in fact suggesting that the nastiness in Talossa is only coming from
one team. And if that were true, Ian P is correct - the only way that could be fixed is for that "team" (mine) to just go away and leave the good, decent people of the other team alone. But if instead the problem is a cycle of communication that has gone bad, then the only way to fix that is for
both sides to own where we're making things worse. Does that make sense?
Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on August 27, 2022, 09:19:36 PM
Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 27, 2022, 08:05:26 PM
Telling people that you won't join a Mental Health Support Group because thank god you have friends implies people needing Mental Health Support don't have friends. Perhaps I'm assuming wrong and if that's the case I understand.
I was acknowledging that many people have family and friends who are not of any support to them. I am very grateful not to be in that position.
Quote
I try to not look at things through the TNCvsFreeDems lens. Perhaps you are projecting something in my comments? I honestly appreciated Miestra and the Secretary's comments.
I know all comments are tied to interpretation by the reader. I considered myself a neutral bystander reacting to every comment by itself, not taking sides.
Also, what an odd conclusions. I was going to finish this post with "I shall abstain from commenting any more if it really makes you consider you staying in the very country you run, PM" but I know you are talking from a TNC-FreeDems pov and that's not really a comment to take seriously. Or at least that's why I tell myself haha I mean I can't listen to a read word.
I take you at your word that you believe you are a neutral observer. However, the fact that it always seems you are calling out particular people, but not others, for pushing people's buttons, when I think everyone is doing it, means one of two things:
1. You are not actually as neutral as you think you are
2. I am just imagining that other people are trying to push my buttons, but I am actually the only one pushing other people's buttons, in which case I should at least withdraw from politics and make everyone happier.
QuoteAlso I believe I'm exposing myself in this post and exposed myself in the last one. I believe that is good. It means I'm willing to trust. I hope you can truts someone outside of your party later, truly. (And I know it won't be easy because... well, lots of stuff).
It may surprise you to learn that Dame Miestra and I were political opponents for most of the past seven years; I only joined the FreeDems last year. However, my relationship with her was (usually) nothing but cordial and constructive during that time. I assure you I am capable of trusting people from outside my party.
It may also surprise you that Breneir and I were in the same party on multiple occasions, first in the Moderate Radical Party of Talossa between 2015-2016, and then the League of Centre Conservatives from 2020-2021. Up until last year I always got along with him (and Baron Alexandreu, for that matter) just fine. I hope we can get back to that.
I am surprised, yes.
I take it all back.
My bad.
Thank you for your contribution, Seneschal.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on August 27, 2022, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: Bråneu Excelsio on August 27, 2022, 06:07:47 PM
I appreciate Miestra and Breneir responses and I believe both of them are talking without a mask that they usually wear when they speak to each other. I find that refreshing.
Problem is - and Ian P is pointing this out as well - that your 70 days in Talossa is perhaps not giving you sufficient background to interpret what you're seeing. I'm trying my best to be honest/cordial with Breneir - and to his credit he appears to be reciprocating - but as Ian P has rightly pointed out, there is stuff that goes back years, what a Scientologist would call "breakdowns in Affinity, Reality and Communication". And my communication with Breneir in this thread hasn't even scraped the surface of that.
There was something that happened, whereby Breneir and Ian P turned from party colleagues to firm antagonists. To my mind, that's never even been sufficiently explained, let alone sufficiently dealt with, and it is the underlying reason why our two major parties currently have such an antagonistic relationship. Do you know what that thing was? If not, perhaps you should find out before commenting.
But: it goes the other way as well. Ian P is not an outlier in being a former political opponent of mine who is now an ally. The SoS, now our Party President, was an opponent, Senator Grischün was an opponent, and Justice V was quite a nasty opponent (man he was rude to me, lol). The short version of that story is that a lot of people who used to wholeheartedly defend the monarchy stopped doing so as the Monarch's active involvement in Talossa decreased.
The point of why I've been trying to delicately engage Breneir is that IMHO the basis for an "empathy network" has to be trust, and that trust can't exist in a situation of heightened partisanship. IMHO the only way to take down partisan heat is "truth and reconciliation" - that both sides have to admit they've done things that have hurt others. Ian P is criticising your "neutrality" as in fact suggesting that the nastiness in Talossa is only coming from one team. And if that were true, Ian P is correct - the only way that could be fixed is for that "team" (mine) to just go away and leave the good, decent people of the other team alone. But if instead the problem is a cycle of communication that has gone bad, then the only way to fix that is for both sides to own where we're making things worse. Does that make sense?
Yes it does make sense. I believed this thread was of a clear intention but that thing you mention taints literally everything in Talossan politics, I see. It didn't matter if the intentions of this thread was good, that something from the past will forever hunt the new things. I don't believe there will be a better time now haha. I'll see my way out.
Thank you Miestra for taking the time to give me context, I honestly appreciate it. :)
@Bråneu Excelsio your contributions to this thread have been level-headed, empathetic, and helpful. And I hope you will continue to make them as you see fit. Your advice to me has helped to guide my responses. I will continue to "respond with love." :)
@Miestră Schivă, UrN What exactly do you need first from me in order to begin our trust-building journey?
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on August 28, 2022, 06:42:09 AM
@Miestră Schivă, UrN What exactly do you need first from me in order to begin our trust-building journey?
Okay, you've asked me plain, and the best compliment I can pay you is to respond plainly.
Brenéir, the issue that I have - and it's certainly not one exclusive to you personally - is that, in my experience,
you seem prone to hostile overreactions. Do you know the story of Sir Trotxa and the Killer Rabbit? Here it is:
QuoteThis was during the National Schism, when Kingdom and Republic were not very friendly neighbours. Sir Trotxa da Betinéir of the Kingdom posted a picture of himself in a cardboard suit of armour from an activity with his Scout troop. Inxheneu Crova of the Republic made a joking reply and Photoshop: "Watch out for the Killer Rabbit!" based on that scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. To those on the Republic side, this was a light-hearted jest as might be made among friends - as Ian Plätschisch might put it, a "mild poke". To Sir Trotxa and most on the Kingdom side, this was a deathly, killing insult, mocking something that was very important in Trotxa's life. We were even told that it had actually hurt Trotxa's Scouts, and their families (who showed them the photoshop, and why???). Here's a sample of the drama (https://talossa.proboards.com/thread/1310/republics-insults-personal).
Brenéir, the bad feeling between us - if I might say this - began with General Davinescu sending you a message which you interpreted as threatening and rude (and you had reason to feel that, admittedly. Txoteu's message was a blunder). You summarily pulled out of the 56th Cosa coalition. All the apologies that Txoteu made to you, and all my messages in which I begged you to reconsider, were simply ignored.
Now, you say that you were personally hurt by the legislative boycott. And that's a fair reaction. But before that
we were hurt by what we saw as you just refusing to engage every time we asked what your suggestion was for monarchy reform. And before that, what we saw as an unnecessarily rude and personalised election campaign (also little things like, we congratulated the TNC after the election; you didn't congratulate us). And before that, turning against a proposal for monarchy reform that you yourself had supported in the election - and, I have to say it once again,
never explaining why. So there is a whole history of "you offend us; we offend you"; but it goes back, as I see, to Txoteu's regrettable message and your reaction to it.
So there are two parts here. Firstly, I don't think A can feel emotionally safe around B, when A simply cannot predict if something they say or do will elicit not only an angry reaction from B, but an angry reaction which results in a collapse of communication, and resentment and conflict for maybe years after that. Secondly, there is a "cycle of conflict" problem. X feels they are justified in being hurtful to Y because Y was hurtful to X first. But then Y says something happened before that which made Y's behaviour justified. And so on and so on and so on. You end up in a South Africa/Northern Ireland situation.
In summary: I don't feel emotionally safe around you because I don't understand why we became enemies virtually overnight - or why you became a bitter opponent of a proposal we once worked together on. Because I don't understand the reasons for your reactions, I can't feel safe dealing with you because I don't know what I might do that might lead to further anger and hostility.
Does that make sense?
Miestra, thank you for explaining. I am sorry that my words have led you to feel unsafe. Of course, I disagree that my reactions to Txoteu's threat were an overreaction. But, again in the absence of explanation, I can understand your conclusion. The problem is, we don't really know one another, and I am glad that the deficit in mutual understanding is decreasing as a part of this discussion. In my next response, I will explain my perspective on the what and why of what happened.
Reviewing for memory's sake.
Sadly, the questions I raised have never been answered.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 18, 2023, 03:21:52 PMSadly, the questions I raised have never been answered.
If I recall correctly, I think we did engage in a rather long worded additional exchange privately via FB Messenger which had my final message on here as its starting point. I didn't think this left any outstanding questions but am still open. I bumped this as proof there have been good faith initiatives.
I remember that you never responded to my last message, but if you think that it didn't contain anything worth responding to, then we have to leave it there.
On the other hand; some of the issues I covered in the Friendly Chat with Bråneu, specifically about lack of trust, holding grudges, and the combination which has led to the current nasty partisan atmosphere. Maybe they deserve a fresh look.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 18, 2023, 07:55:09 PMI remember that you never responded to my last message, but if you think that it didn't contain anything worth responding to, then we have to leave it there.
On the other hand; some of the issues I covered in the Friendly Chat with Bråneu, specifically about lack of trust, holding grudges, and the combination which has led to the current nasty partisan atmosphere. Maybe they deserve a fresh look.
I think you closed with another appeal on monarchy reform which wasn't the intent of the outreach tbh, Miestra, so I didn't respond. After your fresh look please feel free to let me know if I am mistaken though.
This thread has gone quiet for some time now.
(Note: Below, *I* and *you* are general terms - not references to any specific people other than those in conversation at that time).
Perhaps no-one has any more problems with their mental health and interaction with the universe? Hmmm... unlikely. "Support" and "criticism" are entirely different things, but (alas) the first morphs into the second, all too quickly.
There is a steadfast rule in dealing with someone else's emotional issues which is "If *I* am supporting *you* with empathy, then I must *never* refer back to our past interactions. *Never*". We are, though, members of a group/citizens of a realm that interact with each other freely and often. It is difficult to drop prior associations... but essential. If *you* and *I* have had political conflicts in the past, if *I* think *you* or *your party* did/did not do something with which I disagree(d), if *you* have insulted *me*, or *I* have insulted *you* - all of that is irrelevant here – and should – nay must – be ignored and set asside.
And that rule of "stepping back" applies to dealing with your own problems too, not just other peoples'. Difficult, I know.
If this thread is, however, just another political/power/rhetorical thread, then its demise is (was) inevitable. But if we really – and I mean *really* concerned with Empathy, then we should leave our swords at the door – and our past diaries.
Pax vobiscum...
... and, I hope, see you all again.
Quote from: Ián Tamorán S.H. on October 02, 2023, 05:12:41 AMThis thread has gone quiet for some time now.
(Note: Below, *I* and *you* are general terms - not references to any specific people other than those in conversation at that time).
Perhaps no-one has any more problems with their mental health and interaction with the universe? Hmmm... unlikely. "Support" and "criticism" are entirely different things, but (alas) the first morphs into the second, all too quickly.
There is a steadfast rule in dealing with someone else's emotional issues which is "If *I* am supporting *you* with empathy, then I must *never* refer back to our past interactions. *Never*". We are, though, members of a group/citizens of a realm that interact with each other freely and often. It is difficult to drop prior associations... but essential. If *you* and *I* have had political conflicts in the past, if *I* think *you* or *your party* did/did not do something with which I disagree(d), if *you* have insulted *me*, or *I* have insulted *you* - all of that is irrelevant here – and should – nay must – be ignored and set asside.
And that rule of "stepping back" applies to dealing with your own problems too, not just other peoples'. Difficult, I know.
If this thread is, however, just another political/power/rhetorical thread, then its demise is (was) inevitable. But if we really – and I mean *really* concerned with Empathy, then we should leave our swords at the door – and our past diaries.
Pax vobiscum...
... and, I hope, see you all again.
Thank you for your contribution. This group remains open for all who wish to participate. Pontificating is considered participation based on your recent contribution. And if further pontificating is your desire I look forward to your next contribution, Ian.
I don't know if I've responded in this thread before, and with post-election matters I haven't looked :-)
My take on empathy is that each of us needs to consider not only our own feelings and mental needs but those of others. Much of the discourse on Wittenberg is adversarial, which is good for politics. However, that adversarial nature also turns away those of us who have way too much to deal with in our own personal lives. Breneir, for example, I know you've gone through a very rough patch as of late and you have my empathy. You are valuable. We all are. I've struggled in recent days as well with the death of a beloved uncle, the long-term hospitalization of an elderly parent, and the demands of a job that I sometimes view with trepidation as society changes and at my age I find difficult to adapt to. All of us deserve the consideration and empathy of each other, if we are to have a healthy community.
I don't even know if my post was off=topic, but it is what it is.
Quote from: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on October 02, 2023, 10:53:00 AMI don't know if I've responded in this thread before, and with post-election matters I haven't looked :-)
My take on empathy is that each of us needs to consider not only our own feelings and mental needs but those of others. Much of the discourse on Wittenberg is adversarial, which is good for politics. However, that adversarial nature also turns away those of us who have way too much to deal with in our own personal lives. Breneir, for example, I know you've gone through a very rough patch as of late and you have my empathy. You are valuable. We all are. I've struggled in recent days as well with the death of a beloved uncle, the long-term hospitalization of an elderly parent, and the demands of a job that I sometimes view with trepidation as society changes and at my age I find difficult to adapt to. All of us deserve the consideration and empathy of each other, if we are to have a healthy community.
I don't even know if my post was off=topic, but it is what it is.
Well stated and thank you.
Txec, you have my empathy too. I know it doesn't seem like it but I think you do a great job as SOS. Especially considering the recent personal difficulties you mention and the onerous responsibilities of the job. We have been at loggerheads in the past but those are principle-based discussions and not a product of personal animosity.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on October 02, 2023, 09:50:18 AMThank you for your contribution. This group remains open for all who wish to participate. Pontificating is considered participation based on your recent contribution. And if further pontificating is your desire I look forward to your next contribution, Ian.
See, this is the problem, Brenéir. I read your response to Ián above as hostility and dismissal masked in polite-sounding language ("pontificating" is a pejorative), and I feel that that contradicts your stated wish for "empathy". At the moment, I don't have confidence that people in here can disagree with you without an icy put-down, or at best a cold acknowledgement with no empathy behind it, in response.
Honestly, I strongly believe that any group such as this will go nowhere unless it adopts the principles of Non-Violent Communication (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication) or something similar.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on October 02, 2023, 02:45:48 PMQuote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on October 02, 2023, 09:50:18 AMThank you for your contribution. This group remains open for all who wish to participate. Pontificating is considered participation based on your recent contribution. And if further pontificating is your desire I look forward to your next contribution, Ian.
See, this is the problem, Brenéir. I read your response to Ián above as hostility and dismissal masked in polite-sounding language ("pontificating" is a pejorative), and I feel that that contradicts your stated wish for "empathy". At the moment, I don't have confidence that people in here can disagree with you without an icy put-down, or at best a cold acknowledgement with no empathy behind it, in response.
Honestly, I strongly believe that any group such as this will go nowhere unless it adopts the principles of Non-Violent Communication (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication) or something similar.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on September 18, 2023, 09:14:16 PMQuote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on September 18, 2023, 07:55:09 PMI remember that you never responded to my last message, but if you think that it didn't contain anything worth responding to, then we have to leave it there.
On the other hand; some of the issues I covered in the Friendly Chat with Bråneu, specifically about lack of trust, holding grudges, and the combination which has led to the current nasty partisan atmosphere. Maybe they deserve a fresh look.
I think you closed with another appeal on monarchy reform which wasn't the intent of the outreach tbh, Miestra, so I didn't respond. After your fresh look please feel free to let me know if I am mistaken though.
Miestra, I thought my lack of response to your appeal on Monarchy Reform during our last private conversation was the problem. I think you find what you want to see.
Well, I just looked it up and - as I suspected - that is *not* what the main subject of my last message to you was. It was the second of three themes of that last message, and it was mentioned "in passing". The first and last themes of that message concerned other Talossans. The first concerned someone whom you blamed me for protecting the bad behaviour of. The last concerned someone whom I blamed you for protecting the bad behaviour of. I've got the screenshots downloaded, but I'm not going to publish them (without severe provocation) because I don't want those other Talossans dragged into this argument.
I repeat that I don't think an Empathy group can work unless everyone feels that they won't be attacked or spoken to/about in a way that will make them feel shamed or angry. I honestly feel that the way you address Ián Tamoran was rude, which makes me feel that I can't trust you to be Empathetic if you get annoyed with someone.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on October 02, 2023, 05:10:11 PMWell, I just looked it up and - as I suspected - that is *not* what the main subject of my last message to you was. It was the second of three themes of that last message, and it was mentioned "in passing". The first and last themes of that message concerned other Talossans. The first concerned someone whom you blamed me for protecting the bad behaviour of. The last concerned someone whom I blamed you for protecting the bad behaviour of. I've got the screenshots downloaded, but I'm not going to publish them (without severe provocation) because I don't want those other Talossans dragged into this argument.
I repeat that I don't think an Empathy group can work unless everyone feels that they won't be attacked or spoken to/about in a way that will make them feel shamed or angry. I honestly feel that the way you address Ián Tamoran was rude, which makes me feel that I can't trust you to be Empathetic if you get annoyed with someone.
Miestra, in the same way you are telling me that how I spoke to Ian was rude I am telling you that what I took away from your final message was an ask to continue working on monarchy reform. You can post screenshots if you want but that does not change what I took from your message any more than an apology from me (of which there have been several) would change your outlook on this group.
Also, I don't consider this an argument. You are expressing your feelings and I am responding to those expressions. We have long established that we don't trust one another.
Okay; well, I am not looking for an apology from you right now. The issue is that when I talk about "the issues raised in my last message" I am *not* referring to the very brief suggestion that you should talk to Ian Plätschisch about monarchy reform (that ship has sailed, for the coming term at least). I am referring to the following aspect:
1. I gave my explanation why I had defended/protected X person whom you felt had behaved impermissibly towards you.
2. I then went on to explain the problem with how you supported and defended Y person who had behaved badly towards me. This was the part which stuck in my craw that you did not respond to.
The problem with Talossan partisanship is precisely that we form "teams" and things that members of our own "team" do can always be justified because "the other team" deserve it. There is no hope for Empathy unless *everyone* is prepared to climb down off the partisanship and listen to/acknowledge the hurt that "our team" has caused the other.
Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on October 02, 2023, 05:49:22 PMOkay; well, I am not looking for an apology from you right now. The issue is that when I talk about "the issues raised in my last message" I am *not* referring to the very brief suggestion that you should talk to Ian Plätschisch about monarchy reform (that ship has sailed, for the coming term at least). I am referring to the following aspect:
1. I gave my explanation why I had defended/protected X person whom you felt had behaved impermissibly towards you.
2. I then went on to explain the problem with how you supported and defended Y person who had behaved badly towards me. This was the part which stuck in my craw that you did not respond to.
The problem with Talossan partisanship is precisely that we form "teams" and things that members of our own "team" do can always be justified because "the other team" deserve it. There is no hope for Empathy unless *everyone* is prepared to climb down off the partisanship and listen to/acknowledge the hurt that "our team" has caused the other.
Miestra, if you want to talk about partisan climb-downs then you might want to show you understand the hurt you have caused as well. Both sides does not mean self-flagellation from those on the other side. We can throw what we believe are obligations on the other until forever but I'd like to hear where you think you've gone too far.
Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on October 02, 2023, 05:56:11 PMMiestra, if you want to talk about partisan climb-downs then you might want to show you understand the hurt you have caused as well.
Yes. That is precisely what I am suggesting. That is what I was trying to do in Part 1 of the last message I sent you. Was it insufficient? I don't know because you never responded.