Wittenberg

I'm not a governor, but I've also been thinking about province mergers:

(https://i.imgur.com/aFV1vX5.png)

Some people who are on the Unofficial Official Discord server may think this looks familiar, and yeah, I posted the same idea on there on 26 February 2019.

What now?

I really like Garibaldi. Is that a merger of Florencia and Benito?

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
I really like Garibaldi. Is that a merger of Florencia and Benito?

It is! You could think of it as a reunification, as Florenciă used to be a part of Benito (then Mussolini) province. I was originally planning to name it Grült-Benito i.e. Greater Benito but Lüc didn't like that idea and I'm trusting his expertise on this topic.

Now how likely these mergers are I can't say. I believe there was an attempt at unifying Vuode and M-M a few years back and that amounted to nothing, but that hasn't stopped anyone from wild speculating before.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 23, 2022, 03:15:24 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
I really like Garibaldi. Is that a merger of Florencia and Benito?

It is! You could think of it as a reunification, as Florenciă used to be a part of Benito (then Mussolini) province. I was originally planning to name it Grült-Benito i.e. Greater Benito but Lüc didn't like that idea and I'm trusting his expertise on this topic.

Now how likely these mergers are I can't say. I believe there was an attempt at unifying Vuode and M-M a few years back and that amounted to nothing, but that hasn't stopped anyone from wild speculating before.

Do not forget the failed Fiova/Florencia merger.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 23, 2022, 03:15:24 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 02:52:05 PM
I really like Garibaldi. Is that a merger of Florencia and Benito?

It is! You could think of it as a reunification, as Florenciă used to be a part of Benito (then Mussolini) province. I was originally planning to name it Grült-Benito i.e. Greater Benito but Lüc didn't like that idea and I'm trusting his expertise on this topic.

Now how likely these mergers are I can't say. I believe there was an attempt at unifying Vuode and M-M a few years back and that amounted to nothing, but that hasn't stopped anyone from wild speculating before.

I can only speak for myself here but I'm running for the Benitian Assembly on a platform that involves undoing the split between Benito and Florencia. I hadn't considered renaming the province, but a revamped provincial flag was intended to show that Florencia had rejoined us as equals with their own unique history.

I don't think CZ should be merged with any other province, but critical support for this map otherwise. Free Democrats 100% support provincial mergers and the Fiovan and Maricopan administrations are slowly but surely making plans.

It's worth nothing why the Fiova-Florencia movement failed. The King himself admitted to me that the fiery opposition to the merger he led was that he saw it as an attack on monarchist representation in the Senäts, given that Florencia is our "reddest state", as it were (neglecting of course that Fiova is the "bluest"). So much of the opposition to provincial mergers is led by calculations of Senäts representations, unrelated to questions of provincial governance or culture. This, I think, is very wrong.

Garibaldi. That is a provincial name to be proud of. @Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial did you mention you created a draft flag? If not then I would fly a Garibaldi Merger Movement flag.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 04:56:43 PM
Garibaldi. That is a provincial name to be proud of. @Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial did you mention you created a draft flag? If not then I would fly a Garibaldi Merger Movement flag.

I didn't design any flags, so feel free to make your own.

To be honest, I'm not sure why this ancient thread has suddenly become active again but I'm happy that people like my idea, I suppose!

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 23, 2022, 05:05:49 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 04:56:43 PM
Garibaldi. That is a provincial name to be proud of. @Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial did you mention you created a draft flag? If not then I would fly a Garibaldi Merger Movement flag.

I didn't design any flags, so feel free to make your own.

To be honest, I'm not sure why this ancient thread has suddenly become active again but I'm happy that people like my idea, I suppose!

It was me. I look at the list of online users and most of the time it is guests. There was a guest viewing this thread which was not familiar to me. I visited it and was intrigued.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 04:56:43 PM
Garibaldi. That is a provincial name to be proud of. @Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial did you mention you created a draft flag? If not then I would fly a Garibaldi Merger Movement flag.

That was me.


Colors are laid out to cover their positions on the Talossan and Italian flags (green on top (RT)/hoist (IT), red on bottom (RT)/fly (IT), using the national flag's exact hues), in order to nod to the province's history without simply being an inescutcheon of the Italian tricolor. Over all, a navy blue inescutcheon bearing a gold fleur-de-lis, using the exact colors from the current Florencian flag.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on February 23, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
I don't think CZ should be merged with any other province, but critical support for this map otherwise. Free Democrats 100% support provincial mergers and the Fiovan and Maricopan administrations are slowly but surely making plans.

It's worth nothing why the Fiova-Florencia movement failed. The King himself admitted to me that the fiery opposition to the merger he led was that he saw it as an attack on monarchist representation in the Senäts, given that Florencia is our "reddest state", as it were (neglecting of course that Fiova is the "bluest"). So much of the opposition to provincial mergers is led by calculations of Senäts representations, unrelated to questions of provincial governance or culture. This, I think, is very wrong.

Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on February 23, 2022, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

Obviously I'm only speaking for myself, but I don't think one term is a huge bother.

The alternative would be to have Garibaldi take Benito's place in the Senate election cycle, which means the entire province would vote on a Senator during Cosa Election 58. But if we let the Florencian senator serve out their term, that means we would have a province with two senators for a partial term (whatever remains of 57 after the merger takes effect) as well as a full term (58).

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on February 23, 2022, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 23, 2022, 04:56:43 PM
Garibaldi. That is a provincial name to be proud of. @Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial did you mention you created a draft flag? If not then I would fly a Garibaldi Merger Movement flag.

That was me.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946207216275443735/946207666131308574/Benito_Bend_Sinister_with_Shield_Florencia.png)

Colors are laid out to cover their positions on the Talossan and Italian flags (green on top (RT)/hoist (IT), red on bottom (RT)/fly (IT), using the national flag's exact hues), in order to nod to the province's history without simply being an inescutcheon of the Italian tricolor. Over all, a navy blue inescutcheon bearing a gold fleur-de-lis, using the exact colors from the current Florencian flag.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on February 23, 2022, 04:34:50 PM
I don't think CZ should be merged with any other province, but critical support for this map otherwise. Free Democrats 100% support provincial mergers and the Fiovan and Maricopan administrations are slowly but surely making plans.

It's worth nothing why the Fiova-Florencia movement failed. The King himself admitted to me that the fiery opposition to the merger he led was that he saw it as an attack on monarchist representation in the Senäts, given that Florencia is our "reddest state", as it were (neglecting of course that Fiova is the "bluest"). So much of the opposition to provincial mergers is led by calculations of Senäts representations, unrelated to questions of provincial governance or culture. This, I think, is very wrong.

Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

That is an awesome flag

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on February 23, 2022, 08:29:35 PM

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on February 23, 2022, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Might be easy to solve the issue by inserting a Section 12 to Org.III

"Any provinces formed by merger shall be represented by all Senators of the pre-merger provinces in question until the expiration of a term of any of the same. At that time, the citizens of the new province shall select a Senator to represent them, and any remaining pre-merger Senators shall finish the term to which they were elected without being replaced upon the expiration of their respective terms."

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 01, 2022, 03:15:24 PM

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on February 23, 2022, 08:29:35 PM

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on February 23, 2022, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Might be easy to solve the issue by inserting a Section 12 to Org.III

"Any provinces formed by merger shall be represented by all Senators of the pre-merger provinces in question until the expiration of a term of any of the same. At that time, the citizens of the new province shall select a Senator to represent them, and any remaining pre-merger Senators shall finish the term to which they were elected without being replaced upon the expiration of their respective terms."

This would cause issues with 2017 Org III Sec 1 and the principle of all provinces being equal and having one Senator/one vote each. In effect, the "balance of power" in the Upper House will change. Along with the principle of all provinces having one voice/one vote each and being equally represented going out the window, if we find that one province would be "more equal" (albeit for a limited time) than the others.

Simply put, if a province ceases to exist, so too does its Senate representation. Senators represent and vote on behalf of provinces - not citizens (this is what the lower house represents). It risks fundamentally undermining the Organic construction of the Senate and the balance of power between provinces if organically "non-existent" provinces continue to have a vote in the Senate.

The safest route would be for both Senators to resign and the new province elects a new Senator in line with the 2017 OrgLaw. If this upsets a percentage of the population of the province whose Senator of choice didn't get elected - tough, that's democracy.

Quote from: Dame Litz Cjantscheir, UrN on March 01, 2022, 05:04:24 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 01, 2022, 03:15:24 PM

Quote from: Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM on February 23, 2022, 08:29:35 PM

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on February 23, 2022, 07:28:28 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on February 23, 2022, 07:03:15 PM
Could this perhaps be resolved by "grandfathering" Senators? Think of it this way: Neither Benito's nor Florencia's Senator is removed from office until their original term was up. Yes, this would mean that -- assuming the merger happens during the 57th Cosa -- for a partial Cosa term, Garibaldi would have two Senators. The "balance of power" in the Senate is not (immediately) changed. However, when elections for the 58th Cosa come up, Garibaldi would simply not elect a Senator. The Benitian senator term would end, and then the Florencian senator would be the sole senator from the new province, and Garibaldi would take the place of Florencia in the Senate election cycle.

This would have the unfortunate consequence of leaving formerly Benitian voters represented by a Senator they didn't elect. Maybe the short time period makes that concern not very important though.

I'd have to check, but I also think that would involve a change to the OrgLaw also. If that's the case, a referendum would be required.

Might be easy to solve the issue by inserting a Section 12 to Org.III

"Any provinces formed by merger shall be represented by all Senators of the pre-merger provinces in question until the expiration of a term of any of the same. At that time, the citizens of the new province shall select a Senator to represent them, and any remaining pre-merger Senators shall finish the term to which they were elected without being replaced upon the expiration of their respective terms."

This would cause issues with 2017 Org III Sec 1 and the principle of all provinces being equal and having one Senator/one vote each. In effect, the "balance of power" in the Upper House will change. Along with the principle of all provinces having one voice/one vote each and being equally represented going out the window, if we find that one province would be "more equal" (albeit for a limited time) than the others.

Simply put, if a province ceases to exist, so too does its Senate representation. Senators represent and vote on behalf of provinces - not citizens (this is what the lower house represents). It risks fundamentally undermining the Organic construction of the Senate and the balance of power between provinces if organically "non-existent" provinces continue to have a vote in the Senate.

The safest route would be for both Senators to resign and the new province elects a new Senator in line with the 2017 OrgLaw. If this upsets a percentage of the population of the province whose Senator of choice didn't get elected - tough, that's democracy.

I'm not opposed to just starting from scratch, I was trying to suggest ways to get around the apparent political concerns of doing such a thing in the Senate. Electing a new Senator from scratch appears to be one of he things that has caused mergers to get hung up before, from what I'm seeing.

Had a little fun with things and decided to use hybrids of their respective predecessor province pairs to do mockup flags for Litoral (MM+VD), Manáweg (FI+MA), and Sentriun (CZ+KA), respectively:


Manáweg's vertical cross element is obviously too thin, but these are just me goofing around and making rough drafts, because...I like flags, and I can. shrug

Really love the one for Manáweg

That wobbly miéida on the Manaweg flag hurts my eyes, but nice design otherwise

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 01, 2022, 06:15:46 PM
Electing a new Senator from scratch appears to be one of he things that has caused mergers to get hung up before, from what I'm seeing.

Honestly, the main problem with "Manaweg" seems to be the problem that derailed "Iarnéria" (Fiova + Florencia), and that's just monarchists absolutely refusing to let themselves be "taken over by Republicans". I mean, I will assume that's why staunch monarchist Danihel Txecescu said "absolutely not" on the subject.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on March 02, 2022, 02:09:49 PM
That wobbly miéida on the Manaweg flag hurts my eyes, but nice design otherwise

You might like the non-wobbly version better :P

Florencia has the most profound provincial constitution of any of them, one of the more active legislatures/parliaments among them, and (call me biased) one of the more beautiful sets of heraldry. Before someone accuses me of arrogance, I didn't design the flag or coat of arms of Florencia; I merely updated them with 2020 graphics.

Although I admit to thinking that provinces should be abolished altogether, if they should remain at all, Florencia does NOT EVER[/i] deserve to be subsumed, annexed, merged, or otherwise. I would dare to say that recent Florencians have done more for Talossa than most Benitians!

Moving this here since it's a slightly more appropriate venue than the Senator's office thread.

Quote from: Açafat del Val on March 18, 2022, 01:46:43 PM

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
Actually, I have drafted a constitution that merges the two extant provincial constitutions (as well as a second extra draft, on the feedback from S:reu Tzaracomprada, that takes the initial draft and makes it into a directorate). These drafts lift parts of both the Benitian and Florencian constitutions, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes not. If you would like, I can send you links for either or both.

Yes, please.

Gladly!

The "original" draft (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQa1gFtd9UyOn0vsMBLOhsyeRkEf_CYvOkZ1n3pXAXIQA1gqdEj1LqNvucMXRXf1daSk1ILCCuKkMtm/pub)

The "directorate" draft (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSupAZyGQsryq81f_XK7mK9bxHofEd1j5GKNdcHWywE747pDG2T_wkBcnSj3jEHX1J6qz3ypbj0Vb9n/pub)

As both of these drafts note, they have appended to them the remnants of both provincial constitutions from which they were taken. These bits are included because I didn't want to just throw them out without determining (as a group) whether or not they have constitutional value. I didn't know if some of them were perhaps necessary to include in a constitution, keeping them perhaps for a regular law. Something for a group discussion, I think.

Quote

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
In a similar vein, the flag canton is specifically not the flag of Benito. I will admit it developed from a redesign I had in mind for Benito, but made some pretty obvious alterations when I started to develop the provincial merger idea further. The flag of the province on the whole is in the canton of all three prospective cantonal flags. It has nothing to with "Benito over Florencia".

I'll take that on the chin, too. If the canton doesn't represent dominion over Florencia, then fair's fair. I'll reiterate that it's still a beautiful design, though.

Again, I thank you. I know your opposition to the design isn't on aesthetic grounds.

QuoteA massive -snip-

I will agree this is probably more of an issue to bring before the Cort, but I will say I'm sorry it's been frustrating you.

Quote

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
If he's one of maybe two or three citizens of the province I can see regularly active, then no wonder he can basically do what he wants! There aren't enough people here with whom he can share the load, nor are there really enough to force him to do so. Fewer provinces, each with more citizens, leads to improved governance for each, instead of little one-man fiefs spread throughout the nation like what we currently have.

It's hard for me to give a shit remain active when every instance of my passions and interests were unequivocally, unashamedly, and viscously overturned by the end of 2020. I made contributions to Florencia specifically and Talossa generally, and I think that to date most or all of them have been undone, not because they were substantively bad or even improper, but because many Talossans don't want to run a nation – they want to run their own one-man fiefs ;)

It's funny, by the way, that those folks who cry about the FreeDems' failure to govern are the same folks who squash literally any ideas that weren't theirs. (I'm talking about the TNC.)

Similarly, I can understand why making a bunch of changes would be detrimental to your enthusiasm. I want to clarify that my point there wasn't about inactivity specifically on your part, just in general.

Quote

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil on March 18, 2022, 12:53:49 PM
In the case of our provinces specifically: a shared history, and to a lesser extent proximity, are what make the pairing an obvious place to start, but the why is really more of a nationwide issue at this point.

And since you have argued in another thread for enlarging Florencia instead -- ok then, it's your turn to make a convincing argument.

Here's my argument: Get rid of all provinces, including Florencia. Until then, no mergers.

That would solve the issue of threadbare provincial activity, even if not in the manner I was proposing (or, I suppose, in an extreme version of the manner I was proposing ;D). The main issue there is needing to change how we do the Senäts, or perhaps abolishing it altogether. (Not that I'm opposed, I prefer a unicameral Ziu anyway.)