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Special Interests => El Glheþ Talossan => Topic started by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 05, 2019, 05:11:45 PM

Title: The matter of party names
Post by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 05, 2019, 05:11:45 PM
Given how omnipresent the political aspect is in Talossa, I'm honestly amazed that most parties don't already have Talossan translations of their names. I've listed the parties for this Cosă and some translations I came across below. Feel free to share your own thoughts on the matter.

Awakening and Magnifying Passion (AMP)
- Reveglhar es Magnhificar la Paßiun (RMP) [by me]
- Reveglharh es Magnhificarh dal Paßiun (ReMP) [by Iac]

The only difference between the two options is the article. I can't really explain it, but using "la" in this instance sounds more natural to me.

Free Democrats of Talossa (FreeDems)
- *Democrätsen Livereschti da Talossa (--) [by Miestrâ]
- Democrätici Livereschti da Talossa (DemLiv) [by me]
- Democrätici Liverats da Talossa (DeLTa) [by Iac]

The word for "democrat" is "democrätic" -- "democräts" doesn't show up in the dictionary, and even if it did its plural form would be "democrätsilor". Anyway, the choice between "liverescu" and "liverat" is pretty arbitrary; I just followed Miestrâ's choice here. "DemLiv" is a more direct translation of the English acronym, though admittedly "DeLTa" sounds cooler.

Make Talossa Great Again (MTGA)
- Fäts Talossa Grült da Nhouă (FTGN) [by me]
- *Reindarh Talossa Grült da Nhoua (RTGN) [by Iac]

I couldn't find "reindar" in the dictionary... besides that, I interpreted the "Make" as an imperative instead of an infinitive. The original quote gives off that vibe IMO.

New Peculiar Way (NPW)
- Zireziun Nouâ Peculiaristà (ZNP) [by Miestrâ]
- *Zirecziun Nouâ Peculiaristà (ZNP) [by Iac]

"Zirecziun" is a typo. But aside from that, I *hate* how loose this quasi-official translation is. I would've prefered something like "Noveu Vej Pecüliar (NVP)", englishiness be damned. I don't know, did the original Peculiar Way have a Talossan name? Maybe we could reuse it.

Peculiar Nationalist Party (PNP)
- Parti Naziunalistà Pecüliar (PNP) [by me]
- *Partì Pecüliar da Naziunalismeu (PPN) [by Iac]

Sorry for tooting my own horn here, but I genuinely believe my translation is the better one. It even keeps the abbreviation intact!

Zefençadeirs del Päts Talossan (ZPT)
- none

This one is thankfully pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Eðo Grischun on December 05, 2019, 09:34:14 PM
I prefer Partì Naziunalistà Pecüliar too.

I don't know why, but Naziunalistà seems a better translation for Nationalist than Naziunalismeu.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 05, 2019, 10:12:48 PM
In ReMP, I used the infinitives as verbal nouns. Akin to "the awakening of passion", "Reveglharh dal (da la) Paßiun."

"Reindarh" was a brain fart. Shoulda been "rendetz". French uses the verb "rendre" to denote causing something to be a certain way. A more direct translation from the Talossan would've been "Render Talossa Great Again", but "make" is more commonly used in colloquial speech.

ESB already had a Talossan name for his NPW, so I copied and pasted that in.

"Naziunalistà" is a noun, whereas "nationalist" in the original name is used as an adjective. I chose to try to create a modifier directly from a noun, and perhaps a better translation would've been "Partì Pecüliar dels Naziunalistaes". If you want to preserve the acronym and make "nationalist" a noun, perhaps "Partì dels Naziunalistaes Pecüliaes" would be better, though that would change the meaning a bit.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Eðo Grischun on December 05, 2019, 11:14:19 PM
I'm far from knowledgeable in Talossan, so please help.  From my limited understanding, Pecüliar dels Naziunalistaes, would be saying that the nationalism is peculiar.  I'm seeing a crude direct translation of that being something like 'Nationalist that is Peculiar'. Is that right?

If so, that's not really the intent. 

Peculiar Nationalist Party shouldn't be read as a party that is peculiar, or as a party espousing a peculiar form of nationalism. 

Peculiar shouldn't be used as a descriptor, as it's a concept in its own right.

I'm realising my own mistake in naming the party here, as it really should be The Peculiarist and Nationalist Party.

Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 05, 2019, 11:31:22 PM
Adjectives typically follow their nouns in Talossan, with a few exceptions. So "Partì Pecüliar dels Naziunalistaes" would translate directly as "Peculiar Party of the Nationalists".

Using an adjective as a noun is pretty misleading, and I'm relatively certain that just about everyone else figured you were describing the party as peculiar.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 05, 2019, 11:44:01 PM
Incorporating your suggestions, I guess a better translation would be "Partì à Pecüliarità dels Naziunalistaes" (PPN) or "Naziunalistaes se Partì à Pecüliarità" (NPP), lit. Nationalists' Peculiarity Party.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Eðo Grischun on December 05, 2019, 11:59:49 PM
Adjectives typically follow their nouns in Talossan, with a few exceptions. So "Partì Pecüliar dels Naziunalistaes" would translate directly as "Peculiar Party of the Nationalists".

Using an adjective as a noun is pretty misleading, and I'm relatively certain that just about everyone else figured you were describing the party as peculiar.

Hmm. Certainly wasn't an intent to mislead and I'd disagree that everyone figured I was describing the party as being peculiar rather than it being a Peculiarist party, which it is.  Peculiarism featured extremely heavily in the manifesto, while just being peculiar wasn't conveyed at all. 

I dunno.  Adjectives in this sense confuse me.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around how Nationalist counts as an adjective, when it's a political philosophy, which to me should be a noun.

I'll go with whatever you think is the best suggestion.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 06, 2019, 12:02:08 AM
"Naziunalistà" is a noun, whereas "nationalist" in the original name is used as an adjective.

That’s the thing though: Översteir has tons of adjectives ending in -istà, and sometimes the same word is listed as an adjective and a noun (look up "socialistà")

I refuse to believe that you can use "socialist" as an adjective without restrictions but not "nationalist".
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Eðo Grischun on December 06, 2019, 12:08:02 AM
"Naziunalistà" is a noun, whereas "nationalist" in the original name is used as an adjective.

That’s the thing though: Översteir has tons of adjectives ending in -istà, and sometimes the same word is listed as an adjective and a noun (look up "socialistà")

I refuse to believe that you can use "socialist" as an adjective without restrictions but not "nationalist".

Yeah.  This is what I think I mean above.  A person that is a socialist or nationalist... this would be adjective use, while the political philosophies of socialism or nationalism would be nouns, right?
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 06, 2019, 12:19:48 AM
I think a better adjective formation would be "nationalistic". Saying something is nationalist strikes me as rather improper.

That said, I'm also aware that language isn't a democracy, so if the idea that -istà can for both adjectives and nouns is generally supported hy official sources, so be it.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 06, 2019, 12:25:09 AM
In such a circumstance the PNP's name would most likely be "Partì à Pecüliarità Naziunalistà" (PPN), the "Nationalist Peculiarity Party".
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Eðo Grischun on December 06, 2019, 01:13:24 AM
In such a circumstance the PNP's name would most likely be "Partì à Pecüliarità Naziunalistà" (PPN), the "Nationalist Peculiarity Party".

This doesn't make any sense.  How can you start with one thing in English, translate it to Talossan, and then when you translate it back you end up with a completely different second thing in English?

Peculiar Nationalist Party <--> Whatever that is in Talossan <--> Peculiar Nationalist Party ... no?

Forget how people interpret what word means what differently and arguments over adjectives and nouns, surely just a plain reading of the words as we see them should translate one way and then back again to the same?
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 06, 2019, 02:40:14 AM
In such a circumstance the PNP's name would most likely be "Partì à Pecüliarità Naziunalistà" (PPN), the "Nationalist Peculiarity Party".

This doesn't make any sense.  How can you start with one thing in English, translate it to Talossan, and then when you translate it back you end up with a completely different second thing in English?

Peculiar Nationalist Party <--> Whatever that is in Talossan <--> Peculiar Nationalist Party ... no?

Forget how people interpret what word means what differently and arguments over adjectives and nouns, surely just a plain reading of the words as we see them should translate one way and then back again to the same?

It's a translation into what would make sense in Talossan, and then a literal translation back to English. Of course it's not going to be the same.

It's a bit like saying "I have a dog"--correct translation-->"У меня собака"--literal translation-->"There's a dog by me" is no good.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 06, 2019, 04:44:28 AM
I think a better adjective formation would be "nationalistic". Saying something is nationalist strikes me as rather improper.

That said, I'm also aware that language isn't a democracy, so if the idea that -istà can for both adjectives and nouns is generally supported hy official sources, so be it.

You (and Ben for that matter) got it backwards. It's not the institutions that decide what is and isn't correct, it's the speakers themselves. The institutions merely codify and reinforce the speakers' consensus. "nationalist" and "nationalistic" are both valid adjective forms because the speakers, not the official sources, said so. Language is a democracy.

Quote
It's a translation into what would make sense in Talossan, and then a literal translation back to English. Of course it's not going to be the same.

It's a bit like saying "I have a dog"--correct translation-->"У меня собака"--literal translation-->"There's a dog by me" is no good.

I mean, the difference here is that you can't plainly translate "I have a dog" into Russian because of how Russian habeo constructions work. We don't have that problem with the PNP's name. We could translate it literally and get "Parti Naziunalistà Pecüliar". Or we could decide to have a looser translation, at the end of the day it's up to the people in charge I guess.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 06, 2019, 06:12:57 AM
It's a translation into what would make sense in Talossan, and then a literal translation back to English. Of course it's not going to be the same.

It's a bit like saying "I have a dog"--correct translation-->"У меня собака"--literal translation-->"There's a dog by me" is no good.

I mean, the difference here is that you can't plainly translate "I have a dog" into Russian because of how Russian habeo constructions work. We don't have that problem with the PNP's name. We could translate it literally and get "Parti Naziunalistà Pecüliar". Or we could decide to have a looser translation, at the end of the day it's up to the people in charge I guess.

S:reu Grischun stated that the word "peculiar" in the PNP's name isn't meant to be a descriptor.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 06, 2019, 07:25:13 AM
S:reu Grischun stated that the word "peculiar" in the PNP's name isn't meant to be a descriptor.

...if it's not a descriptor, what is its function? It makes no syntactic sense otherwise.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 06, 2019, 07:40:45 AM
S:reu Grischun stated that the word "peculiar" in the PNP's name isn't meant to be a descriptor.

...if it's not a descriptor, what is its function? It makes no syntactic sense otherwise.

Maybe he means it as a substantive or something. "Dr. Mindago's Caravan of the Peculiar". He states that it stands as its own concept, so I just changed it to "peculiarity" and formed a compound noun (partì à pecüliarità)
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Eðo Grischun on December 06, 2019, 09:16:42 AM
I don't know what a substantive is.  My head goes fuzzy even when Googling the difference between nouns, verbs and adjectives.  I have a loose to middling grasp of those three, anything beyond that is brainiac material to me.

Why does it even matter what I meant?  Whatever makes sense in my head doesn't need to make the same sense in yours.  We all see the words 'peculiar', 'nationalist' and 'party', and we all see them in the same arrangement and order.  Can't it just be translated word by word? 

I understand that the word order will probably change.  Like, in Spanish 'white cat' becomes 'cat white', but in it's still just blanca for white, and gato for cat. How come Peculiar ends up as Peculiarity?  That's a different word.  Does Talossan not have a word for Peculiar?
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Iac Marscheir on December 06, 2019, 09:20:13 AM
A substantive is an adjective used as a noun.

It matters what you meant because it wouldn't be a faithful translation otherwise. But if you're ok with "Partì Naziunalistà Pecüliar", that's probably the best translation, courtesy of Tafial.

Because you appear to be using an adjective as a noun, I applied a noun-forming suffix to a Talossan adjective. Pecüliar + -ità
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 06, 2019, 09:24:44 AM
I don't know what a substantive is.  My head goes fuzzy even when Googling the difference between nouns, verbs and adjectives.  I have a loose to middling grasp of those three, anything beyond that is brainiac material to me.
In simple terms, substantives/nouns are for things or people, verbs are for actions and adjectives are for descriptions.
"house" is a noun, "to eat" is a verb and "green" is an adjective.


Quote
Why does it even matter what I meant?  Whatever makes sense in my head doesn't need to make the same sense in yours.  We all see the words 'peculiar', 'nationalist' and 'party', and we all see them in the same arrangement and order.  Can't it just be translated word by word?

I understand that the word order will probably change.  Like, in Spanish 'white cat' becomes 'cat white', but in it's still just blanca for white, and gato for cat. How come Peculiar ends up as Peculiarity?  That's a different word.  Does Talossan not have a word for Peculiar?
It matters because translating isn't about exchanging words verbatim, the result is often gibberish. The Spanish example you gave is accidentally perfect: "gato blanca" would be wrong because 'gato' is masculine and 'blanca' is feminine. 'blanca' would have to be masculine and thus be 'blanco' but thats an unnecessary tangent.

Talossan does have a word for "peculiar", it is an adjective. If we were to translate the English name into Talossan in the most verbatim way possible, the result would be "Parti Naziunalistà Pecüliar", which would describe a party that is Peculiar(ist) and Nationalist.
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 26, 2022, 08:57:06 AM
@Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial I have another Talossan translation question for you because you appear to be good at it.
As to party names, would you be willing to translate Talossan National Congress into Talossan?
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 26, 2022, 10:03:08 AM
@Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial I have another Talossan translation question for you because you appear to be good at it.
As to party names, would you be willing to translate Talossan National Congress into Talossan?

That would be Congreßeu Naziunal Talossan (CNT).
Title: Re: The matter of party names
Post by: Breneir Tzaracomprada on February 26, 2022, 12:45:16 PM
@Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial I have another Talossan translation question for you because you appear to be good at it.
As to party names, would you be willing to translate Talossan National Congress into Talossan?

That would be Congreßeu Naziunal Talossan (CNT).

Graschcias!