Then it looks like there isn't really any recourse. You would think that someone running for our Senats seat would pay attention to the current job they're supposed to be doing for us and the fact that they are going to be personally responsible for collapsing our provincial government.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 26, 2020, 04:21:14 PM
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They're both provincial officials, and if you're asking how Ian is going to conduct himself in his job, I'd also like to hear about how Cresti is going to conduct himself in his.

Maybe we can also get an answer from Cresti d N about why he's personally refusing to hold elections to our provincial government this term, if the candidates are taking questions?

It doesn't seem like he's going to do this at all. Is there anything in the law about what can be done if the M3 just refuses to do his job?

Ian, btw, I can do ID cards again without too much trouble.  I still have all the original templates and everything -- it would only cost about $20 for cardstock printing and postage (depending on demand).  I can also probably do citizenship certificates, which we'd probably want to price at $7 or so to start off.

I wasn't insinuating that.  It wouldn't even make sense.  If someone's whittling a stick of wood so they can fit it in their pocket, I don't think it makes any sense to say that it's the pocket causing the stick to get smaller.

It seems like this would inherently require getting rid of the database, since I don't know that it is technically feasible to separate out the current Chancery duties without an overhaul of the code.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 19, 2020, 10:14:23 PM

Quote from: Ian Plätschisch on July 19, 2020, 01:01:49 PM
If the position of most FreeDems is and will continue to be that Talossa should be a Republic (or that the Monarch should only have ceremonial power), what is the point of the referendum?

To see which (if either) of those options is accepted by the general public, before going to the trouble of writing the appropriate OrgLaw amendment. What exactly are you scared of? If the broad masses like the status quo, then the Free Democrats will not seek to change the status quo.

It's almost like you're afraid there is a majority out there for an end to a powerful Monarchy...

Well, ask the same question every other year, and eventually circumstances will change enough that the ~30-40% support that it has mustered will crest to 50% -- especially as the ranks of active citizens shrink.  It was asked as a regular referendum during an election and failed.  Okay, so then it was asked as a special referendum outside of the general election and failed.  Now it's been a bit and there are fewer Talossans, so maybe it will pass, especially if it's structured as an IRV (which will allow multiple paths to "success").  If this fails, then I imagine next year we'll see a special referendum of a different sort or with different phrasing.

Quote from: Açafat del Val on July 20, 2020, 11:56:46 AM
Furthermore, after poring through El Lexhatx, it seems that there may be a greater need for reform than we realized. El Lexhatx is incredibly muddled on this subject, and it just should not have taken me or anyone else so much effort to figure out which lists are what and which lists may be opted out of.

Yeah, each of the three sections were the result of three separate people adding their own addendums/lists to the existing system.  First there was the electorate database established by Etho with his transparency bill, then Ian P. added the contact database as part of his continuing efforts to get people to talk off of Witt sometimes, and then Miestra added the ability of the Government to send stuff through the official Chancery list.  Probably all three should be cut and consolidated in one Title and with a clear system that the SoS is okay with.

Quote from: Açafat del Val on July 20, 2020, 11:36:37 AM
If you're like me at all, I got my eyes crossed and head upside down trying to understand what's going on in this thread. So, I think it'd help to clarify:

The status quo creates five separate contact lists for five separate purposes, but only three of them may be "opted out" by a citizen. Those three are...

1) A list for the Chancery, via C.1.2.2.5;
2) A list for political parties, via D.8.5; and
3) A list for general citizens, via D.8.8.

The Seneschal would like to make the Chancery list mandatory, where a citizen may NOT opt out, so that newsletters and other print media may be distributed. Some opposition to this idea is that a person may NOT want to receive newsletters in the first place.

However, it should be pointed out that the Chancery list may be used only when the message...

1) Pertains wholly to official Government business,
2) Does not include whatsoever any publicity or other businesses about a political party or candidate, and
3) Is not sent so often before or after another as to be considered spam.

Therefore, I might suggest that newsletters like La C'hronica are already impermissible because they're likely not to pertain wholly to Government business and are likely to discuss politics.

If this bill were to pass, there would be no more increased danger of receiving "newsletters" or "political ads" than in the status quo.

That was a good summary and clarifying, thank you.  There was basically no opposition to the provisions specifically in question, which were Clarked by the current Seneschal a few months into her tenure, so unfortunately there's no discussion about the merits of allowing citizens to opt-out of Government newsletters.  As I recall, Gluc mostly just wanted to know how much was too much.

While I have no interest in Government newsletters, including La C'hronica, by the way, I do have to disagree that it isn't permitted under the current rules.  Thus far they seem to be even-handed and apolitical summaries of discussions and events in Talossa, and while the system could certainly be abused, ESB has actually done a good job in that regard.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 19, 2020, 03:30:51 PM
Alex, you still don't get it. You're still talking about the National Census as described by law, and the National Survey, the Government initiative I ran last year and I aim to run again if I'm re-elected, as if they were the same thing. You're making a fool of yourself.

BTW, it's not very cool to use ableist language like "insane" to describe things you disagree with.

I'm not sure you quite get it, honestly. I haven't been talking about the national survey at all.  Like the second thing in this thread was that I didn't care about it.

I think I've been pretty clear about what my desires are. But whatever, call me a fool. It doesn't really matter and debate here won't affect the outcome anyway.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 18, 2020, 11:31:10 PM

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 10:00:18 PM
Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).

I am beginning to think you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you talk so confidently as if you did, lol. There is no difference in current law between the National Survey and La C'hronică. Both are authorised by El Lexhatx C.1.2.2.5. I think you are perhaps confusing the Census with the National Survey?

In addition to the C.1.2.2.5 provision ("C.1.2.2.5 The Seneschál may request on behalf of the Government that a given communication shall be sent out by the Chancery to the email address of every citizen who has not "opted out" as provided in section 1.2.2.5.4 below"), there are two other parts of el Lexh that create contact lists.  One is referred to as the "Electorate Database," and the other is the "Contact Information Database."

QuoteD.8.5. Information Available to Political Party Leaders
8.5.1. An Electorate Database shall be made available to political party leaders.
8.5.2. The Database shall only be accessible by leaders of parties which have been fully registered with the Chancery and provincial officers, provided the conditions in D.8.5 are met.
8.5.3. The Database shall contain the following information on each of the Kingdom's Citizens only: Name, Province, E-Mail address.
8.5.4. The E-Mail address of a citizen shall only be made available to party leaders if the citizen has opted-in to receive election communications
8.5.5. Measures shall be taken to ensure that the database is kept non-public and can only be viewed by the audience intended.
8.5.6. Additional information may be held upon the database against any given person ONLY if that person requests such information to be included.
8.5.7. Any citizen may request to opt-out of having their E-Mail address included in this database for any reason at any time by notifying the Chancery.

D.8.8 Information Available to All Citizens (53RZ23)
8.8.1. An Contact Information Database shall be made available to all citizens. (53RZ23)
8.8.2. The Database shall contain the following information on each of the Kingdom's Citizens only: Name, Province, E-Mail address. (53RZ23)
8.8.3. The E-Mail address of a citizen shall only be made available if the citizen has opted-in to receiving communications. Opting-in to the Electorate Database does not constitute opting-in to the Contact Information Database. (53RZ23)
8.8.4. Additional information may be held upon the database against any given person ONLY if that person requests such information to be included. (53RZ23)
8.8.5. Each electoral ballot and census shall ask if the citizen would like to opt-in to the Electoral Database and the Contact Information Database. Any citizen may request to opt-out of having their E-Mail address included in this database for any reason at any time by notifying the Chancery.

You propose to alter the first provision, which places limits on the power of the government to use the chancery list to contact citizens, by removing the ability of people to opt out of it. I do not want to see if any government newsletters, but to receive the census. So the status quo is what I prefer.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 18, 2020, 11:31:10 PM
In any case, I think there is a more fundamental question here, and that is that the Chancery email list is itself defective, as shown by how many people in this election haven't received ballots (I've had 4 complaints so far), let alone never receive La C'hronică. So I'm going to get back on my hobby horse about making the Census compulsory - i.e. if you don't keep your email updated, your citizenship gets put on ice until you do.

Makes absolute sense to be more rigorous about kicking out citizens, sure.  There's too many right now, since we're growing too fast, and if they don't keep their email address updated with the Chancery, they don't deserve to be Talossans.  On both a moral and practical level, it makes sense to punish people for failing to update their contact information by exiling them from Talossa, even if they still stay interested enough and active enough to vote.  Definitely not completely insane.

Your current bill eliminates the ability of a citizen to opt-out of Government contact through the Chancery list (to which all citizens belong and through which ballots and the census are sent).  So just abandon your bill.  Thanks.

There is also an Electorate/Electoral Database that people can opt-in for political adverts, and a Contact Database that people can opt-in to just have their email info available to any Talossan.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on July 18, 2020, 03:11:25 PM

Quote from: Sir Alexandreu Davinescu on July 18, 2020, 08:45:10 AM
I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.

Just making it clear that we are talking about communications from the Government to all citizens through the Chancery, as specified in El Lexh C.1.2.2.5. You seem to be saying that you don't want to receive the National Survey and La C'hronică, methods the Government has created precisely to re-activate citizens. This is where anti-Government spite has its limits.

I don't mind getting the survey, but I don't want to receive any Government newsletters.  I guess if the Government changes the law to try to force me to accept them, I can always set up an email filter, but that's annoying.

I don't want the government to send me any email. I only want things from the chancery.