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Author Topic: Reserved seats for new citizens  (Read 1372 times)

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2021, 04:17:36 PM »
You will get unanimous support from the FreeDems if you also include our language on allowing the number of Cosa seats to be varied:

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The number of seats in the Cosa may be changed by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next general election of the Cosa; and that the number of seats in the Cosa may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one.
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Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2021, 04:22:38 PM »
You will get unanimous support from the FreeDems if you also include our language on allowing the number of Cosa seats to be varied:

Quote
The number of seats in the Cosa may be changed by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next general election of the Cosa; and that the number of seats in the Cosa may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one.

I will include that.
Thank you for bringing forth this wonderful idea and letting me take a crack at drafting the legislation.
I will have it ready tomorrow.
I am about to go get a tattoo of my cat.

Offline C. M. Siervicül

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2021, 04:25:39 PM »
The bolded bit is the part which would right now make this suggestion unconstitutional. So - how should we change it?

You could add the words “except as otherwise provided in this article” after the bolded bit, then a new section later in Article IV to address the additional seats. I think the place where section 8 used to be would do nicely. Maybe something like the following:

“In addition to the seats assigned to parties on the basis of election results, the Secretary of State shall assign one Cosa seat to any citizen who becomes eligible to vote after the most recent Election Deadline but before the dissolution of the Cosa, upon the request of such citizen. Any additional seat so assigned shall cease to exist should its holder vacate or be removed from the seat and shall not be subject to the procedures for filling vacancies in the Cosa, and shall also cease to exist upon the dissolution of the Cosa.”

Then add additional sentences as necessary to restrict voting on the VoC, or make the seats nonvoting/consultative. This is a bit wordier than the language suggested previously in this thread by Breneir, but I think the bits addressing vacancies are useful. I also think seats should only be granted to those who request them, not created automatically whenever anyone is naturalized (but I wouldn’t see any problem with informing immigrants of their right to request a seat as part of the routine welcoming process). Not everyone wants or should be expected to serve in the Cosa.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 04:29:03 PM by C. M. Siervicül »

Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2021, 04:37:03 PM »
You will get unanimous support from the FreeDems if you also include our language on allowing the number of Cosa seats to be varied:

Quote
The number of seats in the Cosa may be changed by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next general election of the Cosa; and that the number of seats in the Cosa may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one.

I don't think this is a good idea, but in the interest of furthering this effort, perhaps we can compromise and just increase the time before the change would take effect to the next election following the passage of a calendar year, rather than a single election. I can think of some possible abuses of this power, but none that could happen over such a timeframe.
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Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2021, 04:52:46 PM »
perhaps we can compromise and just increase the time before the change would take effect to the next election following the passage of a calendar year, rather than a single election. I can think of some possible abuses of this power, but none that could happen over such a timeframe.

I don't see the point of the extra time, but if that's what it takes to get flexibility, okay. Actually interested to hear the possibilities of abuse that this would cut out.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 05:00:13 PM by Miestră Schivă, UrN »
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Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2021, 04:59:43 PM »
perhaps we can compromise and just increase the time before the change would take effect to the next election following the passage of a calendar year, rather than a single election. I can think of some possible abuses of this power, but none that could happen over such a timeframe.

I don't see the point of the extra time, but if that's what it takes to get flexibility, okay.
Thank you!
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

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Offline C. M. Siervicül

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2021, 07:23:15 PM »
You will get unanimous support from the FreeDems if you also include our language on allowing the number of Cosa seats to be varied

A thought regarding the interplay between this proposal and the seat number proposal: if new citizens get the right to request a Cosa seat, and then the Ziu passes a law significantly reducing the base number of Cosa seats, that means new citizens could be significantly overrepresented in the Cosa compared to ordinary voters. If the base number of Cosa seats is really small (say 20 seats like in the “Real Cosa” days) and we get a significant number of immigrants in a short time, they could conceivably end up controlling the Cosa. Is this something we should worry about being abused?

There may be ways to build safeguards into the mechanism. For example (just one idea, I’m sure there are others) we could cut off handing out additional seats if the number of Cosa seats gets too low or the number of voters gets too high. Something like: “The SoS shall not grant requests for additional seats if the ratio of the existing number of Cosa seats to the number of ballots cast in the most recent general election is less than one.” (Note that this specific proposal would cut off additional seats after the first one is granted if MPF’s DC proposal is implemented.)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 07:25:36 PM by C. M. Siervicül »

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2021, 08:24:02 PM »
if new citizens get the right to request a Cosa seat, and then the Ziu passes a law significantly reducing the base number of Cosa seats, that means new citizens could be significantly overrepresented in the Cosa compared to ordinary voters. If the base number of Cosa seats is really small (say 20 seats like in the “Real Cosa” days) and we get a significant number of immigrants in a short time, they could conceivably end up controlling the Cosa.

My initial proposal would have been set an upper bound of 7.5% of the Cosa for these additional seats. In a 200 seat Cosa, that would mean 15. For a 20 seat Cosa, that would mean 2 (rounding up).
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Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2021, 11:11:40 PM »
Look, I hesitate to do this because the Senator from Florencia was so excited about drawing up an amendment. But an argument has been made in another thread of the constitutional propriety of any laws mandating how a party can assign its seats. So best to fix that now while we have the chance. Added text in bold:

Quote
Section 2 Based on the final results of the General Election, the Secretary of State shall calculate the apportionment of seats among the parties. Each party shall receive a percentage of the seats as equal as possible to its percentage of the popular vote, but each party shall receive a whole number of seats, and in turn, each party shall assign these seats to individuals, in accordance with law. The Secretary of State shall employ whatever mathematical formulae and calculations in the apportionment of seats as are set by law, or, in the absence of such law, as will best reflect the intentions of this Organic Law. The Uppermost Cort shall be the final judge in case of mathematical disputes.
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Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2021, 02:30:35 PM »
Look, I hesitate to do this because the Senator from Florencia was so excited about drawing up an amendment. But an argument has been made in another thread of the constitutional propriety of any laws mandating how a party can assign its seats. So best to fix that now while we have the chance. Added text in bold:

Quote
Section 2 Based on the final results of the General Election, the Secretary of State shall calculate the apportionment of seats among the parties. Each party shall receive a percentage of the seats as equal as possible to its percentage of the popular vote, but each party shall receive a whole number of seats, and in turn, each party shall assign these seats to individuals, in accordance with law. The Secretary of State shall employ whatever mathematical formulae and calculations in the apportionment of seats as are set by law, or, in the absence of such law, as will best reflect the intentions of this Organic Law. The Uppermost Cort shall be the final judge in case of mathematical disputes.

Makes sense to me.
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Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2021, 04:06:12 PM »
DRAFT AMENDMENT ON RESERVED SEATS FOR NEW CITIZENS

Whereas, the retention of new immigrants is an ongoing challenge for the Kingdom, and

Whereas, the option for new citizens to become immediately engaged in the Kingdom’s government might lead to higher retention and activity levels.

Therefore be it resolved, that Organic Law Article IV, Section 2 is amended to read as follows:

Quote
OrgLaw IV. 2: The Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of 200 seats. Based on the final results of the General Election, the Secretary of State shall calculate the apportionment of seats among the parties. Each party shall receive a percentage of the seats as equal as possible to its percentage of the popular vote, but each party shall receive a whole number of seats, and in turn, each party shall assign these seats to individuals, in accordance with law. The Secretary of State shall employ whatever mathematical formulae and calculations in the apportionment of seats as are set by law, or, in the absence of such law, as will best reflect the intentions of this Organic Law. The Uppermost Cort shall be the final judge in case of mathematical disputes. Except as otherwise provided in this article.

OrgLaw IV. 2.1: In addition to the seats assigned to parties on the basis of election results, the Secretary of State shall assign one Cosa seat to any citizen who becomes eligible to vote after the most recent Election Deadline but before the dissolution of the Cosa, upon the request of such citizen. Any additional seat so assigned shall cease to exist should its holder vacate or be removed from the seat and shall not be subject to the procedures for filling vacancies in the Cosa, and shall also cease to exist upon the dissolution of the Cosa.

OrgLaw IV. 2.2: The number of seats in the Cosa may be changed by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next election following the passage of a calendar year; and that the number of seats in the Cosa may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one. The Cosa may administer itself as it sees fit.

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2021, 05:30:28 PM »
Upon further discussion with the FreeDems. Would there be more support for a shift to a Direct Cosa (1 vote = 1 seat) rather than allowing flexibility?
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Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2021, 06:17:53 PM »
I like the fact that the Cosa and Senats are different in how they approach representation, and that the size of the Cosa is the same for easy and intuitive comparisons.  Could we stick with the approach that we've worked out in principle? 
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Offline Breneir Tzaracomprada

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2021, 04:18:51 PM »
DRAFT AMENDMENT ON RESERVED SEATS FOR NEW CITIZENS

Whereas, the retention of new immigrants is an ongoing challenge for the Kingdom, and

Whereas, the option for new citizens to become immediately engaged in the Kingdom’s government might lead to higher retention and activity levels.

Therefore be it resolved, that Organic Law Article IV, Section 2 is amended to read as follows:

Quote
OrgLaw IV. 2: The Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of 200 seats. Based on the final results of the General Election, the Secretary of State shall calculate the apportionment of seats among the parties. Each party shall receive a percentage of the seats as equal as possible to its percentage of the popular vote, but each party shall receive a whole number of seats, and in turn, each party shall assign these seats to individuals, in accordance with law. The Secretary of State shall employ whatever mathematical formulae and calculations in the apportionment of seats as are set by law, or, in the absence of such law, as will best reflect the intentions of this Organic Law. The Uppermost Cort shall be the final judge in case of mathematical disputes. Except as otherwise provided in this article.

OrgLaw IV. 2.1: In addition to the seats assigned to parties on the basis of election results, the Secretary of State shall assign one Cosa seat to any citizen who becomes eligible to vote after the most recent Election Deadline but before the dissolution of the Cosa, upon the request of such citizen. Any additional seat so assigned shall cease to exist should its holder vacate or be removed from the seat and shall not be subject to the procedures for filling vacancies in the Cosa, and shall also cease to exist upon the dissolution of the Cosa.

OrgLaw IV. 2.2: The number of seats in the Cosa may be changed by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next election following the passage of a calendar year; and that the number of seats in the Cosa may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one. The Cosa may administer itself as it sees fit.

Is this dead? Or is there hope for this being on the sixth Clark?

Offline Miestră Schivă, UrN

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Re: Reserved seats for new citizens
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2021, 05:38:31 PM »
Why would this be dead? It needs to have approval from the CRL (or to be in the Hopper for 30 days) before it can be Clarked, but I'm very happy with the general principle.

Let me suggest some edits to make it easier to read, and which make sure that the provisions for new seats don't conflict with other provisions in the OrgLaw:

Quote
DRAFT AMENDMENT ON RESERVED SEATS FOR NEW CITIZENS

Whereas, the retention of new immigrants is an ongoing challenge for the Kingdom, and

Whereas, the option for new citizens to become immediately engaged in the Kingdom’s government might lead to higher retention and activity levels.

Therefore be it resolved, that Organic Law Article IV, Sections 1-4 are amended to read as follows:

Quote
OrgLaw IV.1: The Cosa is the national legislative assembly, and is composed of a number of seats apportioned among political parties based on their performance in the General Election, as well as any additional seats authorised by this Organic Law.

OrgLaw IV.2. Based on the final results of the General Election, the Secretary of State shall calculate the apportionment of seats among the parties, hereinafter referred to as "party seats".

OrgLaw IV.2.1 The party seats shall total 200, or another number which may be set by law, with the provisos that any such change will not take effect until the next election following the passage of a calendar year; and that this number may never be less than twice the number of Senators minus one.

OrgLaw IV.2.2. Each party shall receive a percentage of party seats as equal as possible to its percentage of the popular vote, but each party shall receive a whole number of seats, and in turn, each party shall assign these seats to individuals, in accordance with law. The Secretary of State shall employ whatever mathematical formulae and calculations in the apportionment of seats as are set by law, or, in the absence of such law, as will best reflect the intentions of this Organic Law. The Uppermost Cort shall be the final judge in case of mathematical disputes.

OrgLaw IV.2.3. Only registered political parties may obtain party seats. Parties which win votes but are not registered may not assume their seats in the Cosa until they register. The process to register a party shall be defined by law. The Secretary of State may request from all parties a registration fee, to be set by law, to cover the cost of the election. This fee shall be uniform for all parties.

OrgLaw IV.3. In the case of vacant party seats occurring between elections, the Secretary of State shall inform the King and the leader of whatever party held the vacant seat. The King shall appoint a replacement to each vacancy. If the seat belonged to a party with a functioning party leader, the King must appoint as a replacement whichever person shall be so designated by that party's leader. If there is no functioning party leader, or if the party leader refuses to designate a replacement, the King shall appoint the replacement according to his own best judgement.

OrgLaw IV.4.1: In addition to the seats apportioned between parties after a General Election, the Secretary of State shall assign one Cosa seat to any citizen who becomes eligible to vote after the most recent Election Deadline but before the dissolution of the Cosa, upon the request of such citizen, up to a maximum number as this Organic Law might provide. Any additional seat so assigned shall cease to exist should its holder vacate or be removed from the seat and shall not be subject to the procedures for filling vacancies in the Cosa, and shall also cease to exist upon the dissolution of the Cosa.

OrgLaw IV.4.2 The maximum number of seats that may be assigned to new citizens between general elections shall be 7.5% of the seats apportioned between parties, rounded up to a whole number of seats.
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