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Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Badges
« on: March 24, 2022, 07:25:55 PM »
I was thinking about the heraldric tradition of badges recently.

Quote from: Arthur Fox-Davies' A Complete Guide to Heraldry
There was never any fixed form for the badge; there was never any fixed manner of usage. I can find no fixed laws of inheritance, no common method of assumption. In fact the use of a badge, in the days when everybody who was anybody possessed arms, was quite subsidiary to the arms, and very much akin to the manner in which nowadays monograms are made use of. ...  [The badge] was worn by the servants and retainers, and was used right and left on the belongings of the owner as a sign of his ownership. So great and extensive at one period was the use of these badges, that they were far more generally employed than either arms or crest

Fox-Davies illustrates his discussion of the badge by providing the badges of the Earl of Stafford, who had eighteen badges in his house in some capacity (unknown precisely, although perhaps for eighteen members of his extended family?), Edward the Black Prince, who used his badge of an ostrich feather piercing parchment on more occasions than his formal arms, and the rival houses of the War of the Roses which were both members of the Plantagenets (Gules, three lions passant guardant Or) but were identified by their badges (among other examples).

The whole thing has me thinking about how badges should be used in Talossa.  I believe that we should treat them the same way they were treated in England: unregulated, ungranted, and borne by individuals rather than by families.  So while my daughters would bear my family arms, they could each adopt their own badges.

Thoughts from the College?

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

    Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
    Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein


Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2022, 07:34:02 PM »
I was thinking about the heraldric tradition of badges recently.

Quote from: Arthur Fox-Davies' A Complete Guide to Heraldry
There was never any fixed form for the badge; there was never any fixed manner of usage. I can find no fixed laws of inheritance, no common method of assumption. In fact the use of a badge, in the days when everybody who was anybody possessed arms, was quite subsidiary to the arms, and very much akin to the manner in which nowadays monograms are made use of. ...  [The badge] was worn by the servants and retainers, and was used right and left on the belongings of the owner as a sign of his ownership. So great and extensive at one period was the use of these badges, that they were far more generally employed than either arms or crest

Fox-Davies illustrates his discussion of the badge by providing the badges of the Earl of Stafford, who had eighteen badges in his house in some capacity (unknown precisely, although perhaps for eighteen members of his extended family?), Edward the Black Prince, who used his badge of an ostrich feather piercing parchment on more occasions than his formal arms, and the rival houses of the War of the Roses which were both members of the Plantagenets (Gules, three lions passant guardant Or) but were identified by their badges (among other examples).

The whole thing has me thinking about how badges should be used in Talossa.  I believe that we should treat them the same way they were treated in England: unregulated, ungranted, and borne by individuals rather than by families.  So while my daughters would bear my family arms, they could each adopt their own badges.

Thoughts from the College?

-NRH

It’s an interesting idea. I’m curious to perhaps see some examples.

- REH
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
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Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Badges
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2022, 07:40:44 PM »
Edward IV ("rose-en-soliel")


Richard I


Duke of Suffolk


And I threw together a quick one for myself by way of illustration.  A corvid feather from my crest, on top of my armorial colors.


More from Fox-Davies here, and the relevant SCA page here.

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

    Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
    Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein


Offline Danihel Txechescu

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Re: Badges
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2022, 10:18:28 PM »
Please pardon me if I interrupt...

I have created (and used) this medallion directly from my arms:


Here it is on a case:


And I even got myself an embosser! Here's a sample on a soft tissue (hehe):

Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2022, 10:35:50 PM »
I really like the idea of doing this!

-REH
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2022, 10:36:36 PM »
Please pardon me if I interrupt...

I have created (and used) this medallion directly from my arms:


Here it is on a case:


And I even got myself an embosser! Here's a sample on a soft tissue (hehe):


That looks sharp!
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Badges
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2022, 10:45:14 PM »
Please pardon me if I interrupt...

I have created (and used) this medallion directly from my arms:


Here it is on a case:


And I even got myself an embosser! Here's a sample on a soft tissue (hehe):


This is really cool! It's your arms on a circular escutcheon. Where did you get the embosser? Looks like it works really well.

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

    Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
    Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein


Offline Mic’haglh Autófil, MoFA

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Re: Badges
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2022, 02:53:51 AM »
I'm all for this. Sort of ties in with what I was thinking recently about Japanese mon vs hanko -- mon are roughly equivalent to arms, whereas hanko are more like individual signatures than anything inheritable. Hanko seals/stamps are actually frequently used in Japanese business documents where we would use a signature in the west -- some classes of hanko are registered and considered more formal than others, for use in business, whereas others are more for personal communications (analogous to how I sign "Mike" instead of my full name when sending cards for, say, Mother's Day).

-LF (?)
Distain
Minister of Foreign Affairs

The Long Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Private First Class, Els Zuávs da l'Altahál Rexhitál
Cäps Naziunal, Parti da Reformaziun

Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2022, 02:58:17 PM »
It seems that in the UK, for example, badges are granted by their College of Arms, normally when granting new arms, and included in their Letters Patent. I would think that if we’re to begin using these ourselves, it should be regulated by the RTCoA and based on either new grants of arms or if requested, upon previously granted arms.

Here is an example of my own Arms in badge form.



-REH
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 03:00:59 PM by Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM »
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2022, 03:07:04 PM »
-LF (?)

This works or you could go with TLF (The Long Fellow).
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Badges
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2022, 03:38:40 PM »
It seems that in the UK, for example, badges are granted by their College of Arms, normally when granting new arms, and included in their Letters Patent. I would think that if we’re to begin using these ourselves, it should be regulated by the RTCoA and based on either new grants of arms or if requested, upon previously granted arms.

Here is an example of my own Arms in badge form.



-REH
I believe that is your arms, just on a round escutcheon, right? For a badge, you could adopt a scroll or basically any other device you wanted on a background of white and red divided probably in the same way as your arms, but maybe completely differently.

It does look like a UK started regulating badges and treating them as something you can request when you request arms, but I was charmed at the idea that there could be a device that people could adopt whenever they wanted or even change, and that would be appropriate to have on livery or members of the household. That's why I brought it up... if we treated them differently then arms, then It might be a fun new thing for people to mess with. If there's one thing I've learned from observing heraldry for so many years with an avid interest, it's that people really like discussing symbolism about themselves and their interests, so giving people more chances to mess around with that seems like it would be a good thing. And if it was free from the usual constraints of the college and the king, it would give people a chance to experiment with different ideas. My daughters made me think of this... I love chess and love the trappings of nonsense feudalism and clever tactics, and so I was thinking of that when designing my arms all those years ago. And that's great for my house in perpetuity! But I want them to have the chance to express themselves in a similar way, and badges will be a means for that.

I'm not married to the idea either way, but it's just something I was thinking about and thought I would throw out there to start a discussion.

-NRH


Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

    Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
    Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein


Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2022, 04:41:38 PM »
It seems that in the UK, for example, badges are granted by their College of Arms, normally when granting new arms, and included in their Letters Patent. I would think that if we’re to begin using these ourselves, it should be regulated by the RTCoA and based on either new grants of arms or if requested, upon previously granted arms.

Here is an example of my own Arms in badge form.



-REH
I believe that is your arms, just on a round escutcheon, right? For a badge, you could adopt a scroll or basically any other device you wanted on a background of white and red divided probably in the same way as your arms, but maybe completely differently.

It does look like a UK started regulating badges and treating them as something you can request when you request arms, but I was charmed at the idea that there could be a device that people could adopt whenever they wanted or even change, and that would be appropriate to have on livery or members of the household. That's why I brought it up... if we treated them differently then arms, then It might be a fun new thing for people to mess with. If there's one thing I've learned from observing heraldry for so many years with an avid interest, it's that people really like discussing symbolism about themselves and their interests, so giving people more chances to mess around with that seems like it would be a good thing. And if it was free from the usual constraints of the college and the king, it would give people a chance to experiment with different ideas. My daughters made me think of this... I love chess and love the trappings of nonsense feudalism and clever tactics, and so I was thinking of that when designing my arms all those years ago. And that's great for my house in perpetuity! But I want them to have the chance to express themselves in a similar way, and badges will be a means for that.

I'm not married to the idea either way, but it's just something I was thinking about and thought I would throw out there to start a discussion.

-NRH

I like the idea of letting people create their own badges. My idea was to establish a simple registration process to avoid badges being too similar to each other.

Let’s do it!

Yes, this is my CoA on a round escutcheon. I will probably mess around with ideas more, but just thought I’d make a quick design based on my arms.

-REH
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Badges
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2022, 04:47:27 PM »
Oh, I see. So we would just provide a registry for people for their badges? That makes sense.

I'm about halfway through trying to straighten up the rules of heraldry. How about I just add some language about this too? Then you guys can edit it or make suggestions before we send it to the SKA?

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

    Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
    Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein


Online Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM

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Re: Badges
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2022, 06:33:38 PM »
Oh, I see. So we would just provide a registry for people for their badges? That makes sense.

I'm about halfway through trying to straighten up the rules of heraldry. How about I just add some language about this too? Then you guys can edit it or make suggestions before we send it to the SKA?

-NRH

Sounds good to me!

-REH
Dr. Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, Esq., O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Scribe of Abbavilla
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Former Seneschal

Offline Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

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Re: Badges
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2022, 06:42:21 PM »
Any enterprising Collegiates who want to take on setting up a Registry of Badges on the wiki in a way that makes sense?

-NRH
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 06:57:44 PM by Baron Alexandreu Davinescu »
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan

    Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
    Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein