So how should a new language organisation operate? Open thread.
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If you're interested in comparison, the old CÚG rules are attached.
Some off-the-cuff ideas I had at 1:30am:
Setup:
- Automatic membership for (former) CÚGers when they ask for it, to make the transition easier
- As little bureaucracy as possible: there's no need for (sub)committees or strict hierarchies when we're only ~4 people
- Voting on proposals as they come up: the CÚG used to collect proposals into 'packages' of sorts to be voted on before a fixed date (that being Llimbaziuă) which strikes me as superfluous as of now
Methodology:
- Emphasis on descriptivism: despite my constantly annoying people around me because of spelling stuff, SIGN should not walk around and proclaim what is and isn't correct, that's the speakers' job. the Scurzniă Gramatică explicitly stated that only the CÚG can authorise the introduction and use of new words which is painfully ass-backwards. At most SIGN should recommend stuff for consistency's and/or good style's sake, no more and no less.
- Research on older forms of Talossan: does anyone know what, say, mid-80s Talossan look like? Wouldn't it be useful to know what it looked like in at least some circumstances? We should definitely try to research that more.
What else?
I like everything you're saying here - a refreshing new approach, a clean break with the old era.
Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on December 07, 2019, 06:45:57 PM
Research on older forms of Talossan:[/b] does anyone know what, say, mid-80s Talossan look like? Wouldn't it be useful to know what it looked like in at least some circumstances? We should definitely try to research that more.
Here's a historical sketch of the evolution of the language from KR1 (http://web.archive.org/web/20000818022757/www.execpc.com/~talossa/glhetg.html), written in the late 90s. Sadly most of the actual texts would be in old issues of
Støtanneu which have never been put online and only exist in KR1's archives, though there are very brief extracts in the 1992
History of Talossa.
I wrote this quite a while back. I hope some of these ideas can be helpful.
(https://serving.photos.photobox.com/9920718345d80052a5caaa255d6a4403584e7f8ba781c3baec1b6679456dcd98a06865ce.jpg)
My most immediate feedback is that you should charge your phone. It's making me anxious.
Oh, something that we have to get done ASAP once SIGN has formed is updating talossan.com, urgently.
Iac's suggested SIGN rules are more complicated than the existing CÚG rules which broke down under apathy.
I say: start as simply as possible, add complexity over time if necessary.
Yes, they drew criticism at the time for requiring more people than were willing to learn the language. I'm not under the illusion that that'll be adopted, but I do think there are some quality concepts buried in it.
I have now made a Google document for creating a corpus and I NEED THE HELP OF ALL THE SIGN MEMBERS PRESENT OR FUTURE! If you want access to the Google Document, please drop me a line, and I will provide you with a link!
Alright folks. Those are the rules for the new SIGN, unless anyone raises any objections till, let's say, Monday?
QuoteRule 1
The name of this organisation is "La Società per l'Ilesnaziun del Glheþ Naziunal", or "SIGN" for short. SIGN's logo is a Bicoloreu circle with blue arrows coming out of it in every cardinal direction. The flag of the Talossan language and its speakers is a horizontal tricolour of black, white and grey in proportion 1:1:2.
Rule 2
SIGN's goals are
- to document, preserve and proliferate the Talossan language,
- to recommend a standard language for government use, and
- to provide glheþinations wherever they are needed.
Rule 3
Anyone who is interested can ask to join SIGN. If a majority of members support this, the applicant becomes a full member. If the applicant was a member of the Comità per l'Útzil del Glheþ as of Llimbaziuă 2019/XL, the voting is skipped and they become a full member immediately.
Rule 4
A SIGN member can suggest a change to the recommended standard language or this set of SIGN rules at any time. If at least a two-thirds majority of members support this, the change comes into effect on the last Sunday of the following month.
Rule 5
SIGN shall regularly publish a journal outlining upcoming changes to the standard or other information that could be relevant to the Ladintsch community. SIGN shall also keep all materials under its purview up-to-date at all times.
I have absolutely no objections to this. Well done.
I wonder if Cresti Sierviciul or anyone else has the final membership rolls for the CÚG to help us? I'm pretty sure I'm a CÚG member but I can't actually remember
OK, it's official. I hereby declare SIGN open for business.
I officially apply for SIGN membership. When are we going to have a website where the Official Rules are displayed? Or at least a TalossaWiki page?
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on January 13, 2020, 08:54:18 PM
I officially apply for SIGN membership.
As per Rule 3, you automatically become a member. Welcome aboard!
QuoteWhen are we going to have a website where the Official Rules are displayed? Or at least a TalossaWiki page?
That's an excellent question. I'm currently preoccupied with Uni stuff, otherwise I would do that myself.
You're welcome. (http://wiki.talossa.com/La_Societ%C3%A0_per_l%27Ilesnaziun_del_Glhe%C3%BE_Naziunal)
I have a question from the incoming Cultural Development Secretary. What is the SIGN process for formally adopting new Talossan words into the lexicon/Overstéir/Treisour?
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 18, 2020, 05:57:23 PM
I have a question from the incoming Cultural Development Secretary. What is the SIGN process for formally adopting new Talossan words into the lexicon/Overstéir/Treisour?
I can think of two approaches:
- We could sift through recently published Talossan texts and check if they contain any new words that have become popular. We'd then vote on whether to add them in an upcoming Pienamaintsch.
- We could have a form where Ladintschen send us suggestions for new words and where the word comes from (as in the etymology for it), and then we'd vote on those suggestions as explained above.
This isn't a question of either/or, we could do both.
Here's the direct quote from the PermSecCultDev:
QuoteSuppose I have created some new Talossan words. (Which I have.) Is there any approval system for getting new words entered into the Treisour and L'Oversteier? Like, SIGN having a committee of Talossan language experts who will review submitted words, see if they are Talossanically correct, and if so, into the official Talossan lexicon they go? (Talossan already has a fantastic vocabulary for a constructed language, but even so, I've found the need to make up new words.) (I was going to add, any citizen who creates five new words that are approved by the SIGN committee gets to move up a rank in the Zouaves, but since AD is going to be gone for awhile,I guess we'll have to scrap that idea.) (I know we should probably be more concerned about people actually learning Talossan than worrying about gaps in the vocabulary, but...I just like words! I use L'Oversteier almost every day.)
We
really need that Pienamaintsch for the Provisional Rules so we can update l'Oversteir and older translations, btw.
Let's see if this works. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Nxz9s52Rj3TMCsEfwQ5LSR-hcgRKe7DT)
Please let me know if I forgot about something. I tried to get this document up as quick as possible and its currently 4:40 AM...
EDIT: Considering how similar the Provisional Standard seems to be to the 2007-2019 CÚG spelling, honestly I'm surprised that you were so on board with it.
My priority is some consensus, any consensus, which allows us to move forward. My entire philosophy of Talossa is that I much prefer that something happen and someone take responsibility, even if it's something I don't like, than we just whine and cry and argue and wonder why people aren't interested in Talossa anymore.
So assuming the Pienamaintsch is acceptable like this: what happens next?
Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 20, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
So assuming the Pienamaintsch is acceptable like this: what happens next?
Considering that almost all Talossan-speakers use l'Översteir for translations: update l'Översteir in accordance with this Pienamaintsch.
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 20, 2020, 08:30:57 PM
Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 20, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
So assuming the Pienamaintsch is acceptable like this: what happens next?
Considering that almost all Talossan-speakers use l'Översteir for translations: update l'Översteir in accordance with this Pienamaintsch.
Sorry, I just realised that that sounded like I was expecting you to do it all yourself, lol. :)
Should we actually:
1) get the Treisour database and divide it into sections;
2) call for volunteers to "update" those sections?
Could this be done by anyone with a basic knowledge of the language?
Points 3 and 5 will definitely be the most tedious to implement because they affect a large part of the vocabulary, can't be automated and require some amount of technical knowledge.
The other points are so trivial (point 4 is just one search-and-replace command) that I could do them myself in 10 minutes tops.
I'm exhausted right now, but what I think I want to do is create a "Super-Pienamaintsch" which enables us to apply a single set of rules to the KR1-era Treisour, which might be easier than "rolling back" some of the changes that have happened (eg stress marking)
All right. Am I right that your Pienamaintsch could be rephrased in its entirety as:
Quote
1. Restore the letter å as it appeared in the pre-2007 Treisour.
2. Restore the digraph äi as it appeared in the pre-2007 Treisour.
3. All words ending in â in the pre-2007 Treisour are restored, with the final letter replaced by ă, although a is also acceptable. Replace word-final indamint with indămint.
4. Replace rh with r throughout.
5. Go through the entire lexicon, re-stressmarking according to the Stress Rule in the provisional spelling whererever necessary. This includes replacing stress marks with tremata wherever their only purpose is to mark a hiatus (e.g. actíu -> actïu).
6. Respell the word Civian "Kevin" as Chivian, correcting an earlier mistake when applying the 2007 Pienamaintsch.
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 22, 2020, 02:48:00 AM
All right. Am I right that your Pienamaintsch could be rephrased in its entirety as:
Quote
[...]
3. All words ending in â in the pre-2007 Treisour are restored, with the final letter replaced by ă, although a is also acceptable. Replace word-final indamint with indămint.
[...]
Not quite. Prepositions that arent derivations of feminine nouns or adjectives (like
contrâ or
proftâ) don't get their  back (-->
contra,
profta), but some words that never had  under Ben's rules (like
Rußïa,
Tzaratütsch) do (-->
Rußïă,
Tzarătütsch).
Great, so:
Quote
1. Restore the letter å as it appeared in the pre-2007 Treisour.
2. Restore the digraph äi as it appeared in the pre-2007 Treisour.
3. Replace word-final unstressed a or â of feminine nouns and adjectives, their compounds (e.g. Tzaranhoua "Newfoundland") and derivations with ă, except in Talossa. Replace word-final indamint with indămint. A is an acceptable substitute for ă throughout.
4. Replace rh with r throughout.
5. Go through the entire lexicon, re-stressmarking according to the Stress Rule in the provisional spelling whererever necessary. This includes replacing stress marks with tremata wherever their only purpose is to mark a hiatus (e.g. actíu -> actïu).
6. Respell the word Civian "Kevin" as Chivian, correcting an earlier mistake when applying the 2007 Pienamaintsch.
While I'm on the subject, why did the adjective Talossán lose its final-syllable stress in the 2007-2014 language? And can we have it back?
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 22, 2020, 03:05:02 PM
While I'm on the subject, why did the adjective Talossán lose its final-syllable stress in the 2007-2014 language? And can we have it back?
It didn't.
Talossan is pronounced with ultimate stress according to the stress rule.
Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on February 22, 2020, 04:49:09 PM
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on February 22, 2020, 03:05:02 PM
While I'm on the subject, why did the adjective Talossán lose its final-syllable stress in the 2007-2014 language? And can we have it back?
It didn't. Talossan is pronounced with ultimate stress according to the stress rule.
Ha ha, shows how much I understand the CÚG Arestadas I spent 7 years bitching about. :) I've got a lot to learn and I'm glad you're on the ball.
Anyway, let's get together a timetable for updating l'Oversteir to use Provisional Rules Spelling, shall we?
BUMP.
@Marcel, are you around at the moment?
Quote from: Miestrâ Schiva, UrN on March 15, 2020, 08:29:39 PM
Anyway, let's get together a timetable for updating l'Oversteir to use Provisional Rules Spelling, shall we?
Right, sorry.
As I expected, the reintroduction of Ă is by far the most tedious rule to implement, so we should maybe split up the 24500 line Översteir dictionary file into 4 or 5 smaller chunks to get this done anytime soon.
Great, give me a chunk and I'll see what I can do. Any other volunteers?
I hope this is the right thread to put this in...
If you are all revising the spelling of Talossan, what about marking consonant mutation more of the time? I'm not quite sure why it's not usually marked
... because consonant mutations were abandoned in the early 90s, lol. Fossilized remnants thereof are still part of the vocabulary but we no longer use that system.
ah
that makes learning talossan a bit easier i guess
Quote from: Aleretză Gavrial Bråneu on June 22, 2020, 12:51:46 AM
ah
that makes learning talossan a bit easier i guess
If you haven't seen it yet, this is a history of how Talossan language developed up until 1999 (http://web.archive.org/web/20000818022757/www.execpc.com/~talossa/glhetg.html), including the adopting and discarding of mutations. The basic rules of the language haven't changed much since then; only the spelling.
Azul! I'm interested in joining the committee. I've spent the past several years studying linguistics at university and I hope I can make use of it here. I hope you're accepting new members!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Françal I. Lux on July 20, 2020, 04:21:04 PM
Azul! I'm interested in joining the committee. I've spent the past several years studying linguistics at university and I hope I can make use of it here. I hope you're accepting new members!
I vote yes, and since Miestră added you to the SIGN message list thing, I'll take that as a yes vote from her as well. Welcome aboard!