Miestrâ has more energy than the rest of us put together. Vote FREEDEMs!

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

*groans*

Kneejerk reactions here. You asked my opinions of your proposal: I said "I don't have one because it's not relevant to me, i.e. it deals with 0% of the issues I have with the Talossan monarchy". Don't ask to be taken seriously, then complain when you are. Instead, take it as feedback: a political proposal has to deal with actually-existing social issues to be relevant.

[Tierçéu Rôibeardescù]

With respect, J. R., you have absolutely no idea what Ben Madison was actually like. You're acting like a disgruntled schoolkid comparing an unpleasant teacher to Hitler. I'm not enthusiastic enough for a fight to tell you who in Talossa right now really does behave like Ben Madison, insofar as gaslighting and emotional manipulation, but I'm sure others can chime in.

There you go again making it personal, using my real initials. You yourself have told us that our history is worth reading and learning from.  Looks like I have learnt enough to draw a comparison.

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Which is more offensive: when I don't say what I think about NPW policies, or when I say what I think about them? Choose one! ;)

I didn't see him say you were being offensive or personally attacking you.  He just said he thought you were wrong.

[Eðo Grischun]

With respect, J. R., you have absolutely no idea what Ben Madison was actually like. You're acting like a disgruntled schoolkid comparing an unpleasant teacher to Hitler. I'm not enthusiastic enough for a fight to tell you who in Talossa right now really does behave like Ben Madison, insofar as gaslighting and emotional manipulation, but I'm sure others can chime in.

There you go again making it personal, using my real initials. You yourself have told us that our history is worth reading and learning from.  Looks like I have learnt enough to draw a comparison.

Thing is, the person making it personal here seems to be you. Miestra may be rough in her debating style, but at least the meat of her argument attacks the policies of the opposition.  You, on the other hand, are doing just exactly what you claim her to be doing (though she isn't), and that being focusing your attack on her personality, ad hominem.

Miestra has put forward her argument that she disagrees with certain policies.  Instead of retorting by defending those policies you choose to attack her personality and falsely equate her to our Nation's bogeyman from the past to down her.

I am aware that I am guilty, to a degree, here of playing "tu quoque", but still, and seriously, you might think you are somehow arguing the righteous and admirable position here, but you're just being the exact thing you are claiming to stand against.

[Tierçéu Rôibeardescù]

With respect, J. R., you have absolutely no idea what Ben Madison was actually like. You're acting like a disgruntled schoolkid comparing an unpleasant teacher to Hitler. I'm not enthusiastic enough for a fight to tell you who in Talossa right now really does behave like Ben Madison, insofar as gaslighting and emotional manipulation, but I'm sure others can chime in.

There you go again making it personal, using my real initials. You yourself have told us that our history is worth reading and learning from.  Looks like I have learnt enough to draw a comparison.

Thing is, the person making it personal here seems to be you. Miestra may be rough in her debating style, but at least the meat of her argument attacks the policies of the opposition.  You, on the other hand, are doing just exactly what you claim her to be doing (though she isn't), and that being focusing your attack on her personality, ad hominem.

Miestra has put forward her argument that she disagrees with certain policies.  Instead of retorting by defending those policies you choose to attack her personality and falsely equate her to our Nation's bogeyman from the past to down her.

I am aware that I am guilty, to a degree, here of playing "tu quoque", but still, and seriously, you might think you are somehow arguing the righteous and admirable position here, but you're just being the exact thing you are claiming to stand against.

I see the hypocrisy.

I just shouldnt have to point it out in the first place. the shoe sure as hell doesn't fit me, somone else will have have to wear it.

[Eðo Grischun]

With respect, J. R., you have absolutely no idea what Ben Madison was actually like. You're acting like a disgruntled schoolkid comparing an unpleasant teacher to Hitler. I'm not enthusiastic enough for a fight to tell you who in Talossa right now really does behave like Ben Madison, insofar as gaslighting and emotional manipulation, but I'm sure others can chime in.

There you go again making it personal, using my real initials. You yourself have told us that our history is worth reading and learning from.  Looks like I have learnt enough to draw a comparison.

Thing is, the person making it personal here seems to be you. Miestra may be rough in her debating style, but at least the meat of her argument attacks the policies of the opposition.  You, on the other hand, are doing just exactly what you claim her to be doing (though she isn't), and that being focusing your attack on her personality, ad hominem.

Miestra has put forward her argument that she disagrees with certain policies.  Instead of retorting by defending those policies you choose to attack her personality and falsely equate her to our Nation's bogeyman from the past to down her.

I am aware that I am guilty, to a degree, here of playing "tu quoque", but still, and seriously, you might think you are somehow arguing the righteous and admirable position here, but you're just being the exact thing you are claiming to stand against.

I see the hypocrisy.

I just shouldnt have to point it out in the first place. the shoe sure as hell doesn't fit me, somone else will have have to wear it.

I wasn't calling you out on hypocrisy.  I was saying you are flat out wrong.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

The above is what I keep misreading the title of this thread as. It's just as accurate.

[Ián S.G. Txaglh]

so this is what english speakers call a shitstorm, am i right? nice. i always like illustrative examples when learning new words.

and now for something compleeeetely different. guys, could the main reason for appalling attractive of talossa be not the freedems government but simply that we and world around us are changing radically? obviously, some of you have mentioned that outside life takes our attention, but more importantly, i see it on me, the everyday grinding mill of wurck, family and suchs strips me of spontaneousness and creativity. not that i do not want to, i simply cannot. time to time i whip up me myself to do something, but mostly i live in series of slightly variable stereotypes. i do not complain. i accept it as an inevitable necessity of progressing human life. i resist whenever i may, but do not let it fall on me.

next, the form of talossa needs also not to the most attractive to people with so so many possibilities to be with other people. let's face that, fascination of "playing" or "being" a nationette fades face to face the new world. what was new and funny in 90ies is an old, worn shirt in 2020. yes, there are still lots of youngsters doing micronations (yes, yes, i know), but in their own way mostly. talossan tradition seems to not so appealing in contrast to do things on their own, with their close friends.

i am also conlanger since ages and i still move around young conlangers, but their motivations and work differs from mine/people of my generation a lot and in many aspects.

talossa never really turned into multigeneration ship, we should not blame ourselves. culture changes and soon we will turn into a museum exhibit. let us enjoy what we have without stupid bickering and try to attract at least those rare freaks who want to cosplay nationette citizens ;) and it can be hardly done when the only thing they see are old cocks on a heap of manure fighting, pardon my klatchian. being honest is fine, being responsible is good, being too serious never is of any benefit for a jolly company. i am rosenbergian nice nihilist, i love fun (it is the very one good thing we give one to each other) and i refuse, yes, i refuse to stand by such pointless debate as presented in this threat. this is far beyond political discussion, far off of friendly teasing. howgh.

[esbornatfiglheu]

Which is more offensive: when I don't say what I think about NPW policies, or when I say what I think about them? Choose one! ;)

Churches!  Gravy!  Very Small Rocks!

[Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial, UrGP]

next, the form of talossa needs also not to the most attractive to people with so so many possibilities to be with other people. let's face that, fascination of "playing" or "being" a nationette fades face to face the new world. what was new and funny in 90ies is an old, worn shirt in 2020. yes, there are still lots of youngsters doing micronations (yes, yes, i know), but in their own way mostly. talossan tradition seems to not so appealing in contrast to do things on their own, with their close friends.

So, the appeal of micronations hasnt diminished since the 90s. Instead, people do the exact same thing that lead to the creation of Talossa in the first place: "do[ing] things on their own, with their close friends". In fact, creating a micronation has never been easier, and there are a whole bunch of online meeting places where micronations can interact with each other (often in toxic, cringy ways -- I suppose that's what Ben meant by "bug nation"). What's stopping us from doing more publicity for ourselves? Sealand continues to be wellknown even outside the micronational community, and they have waaaaaaaaaaay less to offer than us.

i am also conlanger since ages and i still move around young conlangers, but their motivations and work differs from mine/people of my generation a lot and in many aspects.

As a young (I guess) conlanger myself, I'd love to know what exactly you mean by that.
EDIT: On a different note, could I interest you in joining SIGN?

talossa never really turned into multigeneration ship, we should not blame ourselves. culture changes and soon we will turn into a museum exhibit.

But why does it have to be like this? If culture can change, why can't we? (that's a trick question, we do change -- the early 2010s are as ancient as the 1980s)

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

I agree with Marcel, I think that it is unlikely that the appeal of micronations in general has declined.  Look at Ladonia.  It was founded in 1996 in Sweden, and it currently has 22,000 members or so (https://www.ladonia.org/).  They're obviously pretty different from us, but not that different in the ways we're talking about.  Their social media is active (https://twitter.com/ladonia_info) and they have a media (https://www.ladoniaherald.com/).

There are other, similar examples -- things like Nova Roma or the Esperanto community.  These groups are all growing.  It would be comforting to think that there just isn't any problem, I know -- full sail ahead, don't worry about the water around your feet, it's normal -- but I think that would just be fooling ourselves.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

Alex, when will you stop telling your little fibs. The Government and the Free Democrats agree there is a problem. It's just that you continually argue that the problem is us. Hutsch-tú for doing that, by the way. I'm keeping your quote in my signature forever as a signal of the quality of your takes.

One real issue is publicity, as has been raised. The outgoing government massively dropped the ball on use of social media. The Free Dems aim to prioritise fixing that.

[Miestră Schivă, UrN-GC]

Another issue is that there is something screwy going on with global email networks. Many citizens with perfectly valid and up-to-date email addresses just didn't get their ballot this election, which is of course taking the top off of turnout. I think we need reforms to make it much easier for citizens to get their election ballots without having to go through email (and, perhaps, easier to get their NewWitt accounts approved?)

[Baron Alexandreu Davinescu]

Alex, when will you stop telling your little fibs. The Government and the Free Democrats agree there is a problem. It's just that you continually argue that the problem is us.

...you should really read the thread?  We're chatting with Ian T, who was suggesting that maybe there was no essential problem but just that times had become hard for micronations in general, and that we needed to change radically to meet the radical change in the world around us.  I didn't mention you or yours, because not everything is about you.  There has to be space for other conversations.

[Ián S.G. Txaglh]

next, the form of talossa needs also not to the most attractive to people with so so many possibilities to be with other people. let's face that, fascination of "playing" or "being" a nationette fades face to face the new world. what was new and funny in 90ies is an old, worn shirt in 2020. yes, there are still lots of youngsters doing micronations (yes, yes, i know), but in their own way mostly. talossan tradition seems to not so appealing in contrast to do things on their own, with their close friends.

So, the appeal of micronations hasnt diminished since the 90s. Instead, people do the exact same thing that lead to the creation of Talossa in the first place: "do[ing] things on their own, with their close friends". In fact, creating a micronation has never been easier, and there are a whole bunch of online meeting places where micronations can interact with each other (often in toxic, cringy ways -- I suppose that's what Ben meant by "bug nation"). What's stopping us from doing more publicity for ourselves? Sealand continues to be wellknown even outside the micronational community, and they have waaaaaaaaaaay less to offer than us.

i am lecturing interlinguistics for some time and i came across an interesting observation, which is imho applicable to micronationalism too. the auxlanging community (made mostly of esperantists) is increasing in numbers, but proportionally to the total number of people, the dynamics is much lower. speaking a bit more scientificallish - if we imagine a very simple model of community dynamics as a linear function, the slope for auxlanging is lower than for general growth of population. which in fact means that the community draws less attention over time. also the structure of auxlanging community changes (also seems applicable model to micronationalism), less and less people are organised, more and more are "wild", unorganised fans mostly through social media, whose interest is different from the let say original intention to create an international by auxlang connected community. also younger people are consciously more sceptical to the goal of international auxiliary language. i noticed that in my courses too (i teach also conlangs). recent advances in cognitive linguistics shows that it was always the matter behind hindering the spread of the idea, but today it reaches the surface of the consciousness. that may be also answer to your second question - people are doing optically the same stuff but with different motivation. those micros still surviving at large, namely ladonia, are location based, core is off-line existing and ladonia specific. they are centred around physically reachable specific artifacts and locations. talossa is also attached to specific places, but those are not non-interchangeably talossa specific, non-talossan people do not see them as talossan, whereas those objects in kullaberg are directly linkable to ladonia. it is a strong point. mind is a strong thing and we still do not understand much how it works, what we already know pretty well, is that we fool ourselves a lot when it comes to layman's opinions on how mind and the stuff around work.

i am also conlanger since ages and i still move around young conlangers, but their motivations and work differs from mine/people of my generation a lot and in many aspects.

As a young (I guess) conlanger myself, I'd love to know what exactly you mean by that.
EDIT: On a different note, could I interest you in joining SIGN?

if you think i would of any good to SIGN, i am happy to join. i must warn you, that besides my normal day-to-day job, i am in third year of my phd in general linguistics, so my time available is rather limited :)

talossa never really turned into multigeneration ship, we should not blame ourselves. culture changes and soon we will turn into a museum exhibit.

But why does it have to be like this? If culture can change, why can't we? (that's a trick question, we do change -- the early 2010s are as ancient as the 1980s)

we can change, of course, but i do not know how we should do that. i am not a fan of social media but majority of people are, i am not really into this overserious political modelling of freedems (and other people are) or total micronationalistic cosplay with kings and pomp. i am into interesting people :) so some kind of compromise is fine with me, that is why i honestly e.g. run for cosa.

some of you may remember, i was/am still involved in my older group (ark maramia), but we faced the same thing even decade earlier (we were/are on since 1978) - families, jobs and other extra-arkian activities diminished the fire burning when we were younger and otherwise not committed to other stuff. we still "survive" (we meet once a year physically) - i work on language, sloooowly, my friend is an artist, so he creates different artefacts, monuments and stuff. even 25 yrs ago we abolished all the crap we used to play before - money, armies, copycat governments, claiming land. we introduced consensual community, spiritual homeland principle with single-page constitution and five single-page laws (division of power, administration, civil, judical, criminal & language) and we still have fun. it is not that vivid, but i am happy. last citizen came in 2001, last outted 2002. we are three today, the peak was some 20+ people exactly in the time, when we were adolescent kids playing kings and kingdoms at the end of 80ies (no internet and goulash-bolsheviks at power).