Quote from: Glüc da Dhi S.H. on June 10, 2021, 04:48:31 AM
I would strongly urge the coalition parties NOT to make any internal agreements on who should become Túischac'h,

Well, that's a pity, because we already decided behind closed doors that it's you. Congratulations.

... only messing with you, but I wonder what the 2-days-old coalition has done to provoke this kind of suspiciousness. On a personal level, my own concern for Túischac'h is that they be a productive and active member of the CRL. If Marcel wants it, he can have it imho.

Quote from: GV on June 10, 2021, 12:38:44 AM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 09, 2021, 11:27:19 PM
Should we add this to the New Talossan History Project?

Do so.

No, you do so, you have equal rights as I do :D

I've dropped a line to MPF asking him whether a Culture Ministry grant might help him in making RepublicWitts available for researchers again. However, I must say as a Republic veteran I would want them available in exactly the same format as the Kingdom ProBoards Witt is available - free for all researchers, rather than handed over as a private data dump to one particular writer (who might be rightly or wrongly suspected of having a negative agenda). Imagine if such a shady character were to find, for example, intemperate or embarassing things I said in 2005, but have forgotten, and was to trot them out as part of a contemporary political hackjob on me. No, I want all that stuff in the public domain so I can find it myself if necessary and either apologise or explain the context.

Here's an easier to read formatted version: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OfQlUZrowS4frssyea6-SLxz8Pcss5WNNxyKud82lQw/edit?usp=sharing, I'll make any further modifications to this version

Should we add this to the New Talossan History Project?

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on June 09, 2021, 10:03:27 PM
without the class system, there are no maximum lengths for civil disability or maximum amounts for fines now.

ESB got 18 years civil disability, which was later overturned, which IMHO was ridiculous. 5 years maximum civil disability? 500 louis maximum fine (which would be half our total treasury)?

Perjury definition corrected.

So, ummm... I wrote a thing. I would happily replace 55RZ24 with the below replacement for Sections A.1-8 of El Lexh:

Quote1.      General provisions of Talossan jurisprudence:
1.1.   Talossan courts shall interpret Organic and Statute Law through the lens of the Covenants of Rights and Freedoms, and otherwise in accordance with Talossan juridical precedent. Judges may also use precedent from other legal systems with which they are familiar to guide their decisions, though such precedent shall not be binding.
1.2.   Only crimes described in Talossan Organic and Statute Law may be prosecuted in Talossan courts.
2.      Felonies and misdemeanours. All crimes against Talossan law shall be classed as misdemeanours unless stated otherwise.
3.      Authorized punishments for all crimes classed as felonies shall be as follows:
3.1.    Banishment. Banishment may be ordered in conjunction with revocation of citizenship in any felony case. Banishment prohibits the former citizen from entering the territory of the Kingdom of Talossa. A former Talossan who has been banished may not be reinstated as a citizen.
3.2.    Revocation of citizenship. A sentence of revocation of citizenship directs the Chancery to remove the offender from the list of Talossan citizens. Simple revocation is without prejudice to a future reapplication for citizenship.
4.      Authorized punishments for all crimes classed as either felonies or serious misdemeanours shall be as follows:
4.1.   Civil disability. Civil disabilities may include any or all of the following:
4.1.1.      Bar from holding national executive office
4.1.2.      Bar from holding national judicial office
4.1.3.      Bar from holding national legislative office
4.1.4.      Bar from holding provincial office
4.1.5.      Bar from performing military service
4.1.6.      Bar from service in the Royal Civil Service
4.1.7.      Bar from posting on Wittenberg
5.      Authorized punishments for all crimes shall be as follows:
5.1.   Fines. When a fine is imposed as a component of any sentence, the court shall specify the period within which the sum must be paid, which period shall not be less than thirty days. The court may, in the interests of justice, allow the offender to pay the sum in more than one installment, according to a schedule prescribed by the court. Willful failure to pay a fine within the time provided is punishable as criminal contempt of court.
5.2.   Restitution. When imposing sentence for any crime, a court, in addition to any other penalty authorized by law, shall order the offender to make full or partial restitution to any victim of a crime considered at sentencing or, if the victim is deceased, to his or her estate, unless the court finds substantial reason not to do so and states the reason on the record. The court must specify a reasonable period of time, not less than thirty days, within which the offender must make restitution. Willful failure to make restitution within the time provided is punishable as criminal contempt of court. Court-ordered restitution shall not bar any victim from pursuing any civil remedies available at law to recover any amount or type of damages not covered by the order of restitution.
5.3.   Reprimand. In all criminal cases, a court may reprimand the offender in addition to (or in lieu of, where no minimum punishment applies) any other authorized punishment.
5.4.   In addition to any other punishment authorized by law, a court may order revocation of citizenship (as described elsewhere in this Lexhatx) upon conviction for a misdemeanour, only if the court determines, based on the offender's potential for rehabilitation and any aggravating circumstances of the offense(s), that any lesser punishment is unlikely to deter the offender from repeating his or her criminal behavior.
6.      Suspended sentences:
6.1.   A court may order the suspension of all or part of any sentence, for a period of time not to exceed two calendar years. At the end of the period of suspension ordered by the court, the suspended punishment is rescinded if the offender has not violated any condition of the suspension.
6.2.    If a court determines, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the offender violated any condition of his suspension during the period of the suspension, the suspension shall be revoked and the original punishment imposed. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit prosecuting an act violating a condition of suspension as a criminal offense in its own right, either in the same or a separate action as the revocation of suspension.
6.3.    Refraining from committing any further crimes is an implicit condition of every suspended sentence. Other conditions which may be imposed by the court include, but are not limited to:
6.3.1.      Injunction from requesting or accepting royal honours
6.3.2.      Injunction from violating Wittiquette
6.3.3.      The performance of a fixed amount of community service under the supervision of a public body or not-for-profit organization, as directed or approved by the court.
6.4.   Civil disabilities may be imposed in conjunction with a suspended sentence upon conviction of a felony, but where a sentence of revocation of citizenship has been suspended.
7.      Talossan Criminal Code
7.1.   Definitions.
7.1.1.      "Fraud" shall mean any act of deception carried out for the purpose of unfair, undeserved and/or unlawful gain, or the assumption of a false identity to such deceptive end.
7.1.2.      "Harassment" shall mean engaging in a course of conduct or repeatedly committing acts which harass, intimidate or distress a person and which serve no legitimate purpose.
7.2.   Crimes against the Kingdom.
7.2.1.      Treason. Whoever knowingly endangers the existence of the Kingdom of Talossa, its laws, institutions and state property, by enlisting or attempting to enlist the aid of non-Talossans, commits the felony of treason.
7.2.2.      Perverting the course of justice. Whoever uses fraud, harassment, physical or sexual violence or
threats thereof to attempt to influence an active case in any Cort under the
Organic Law is guilty of the felony of perverting the course of justice.
7.2.2.1.            Perverting the course of justice shall also include fabricating or disposing of evidence, as well as suborning perjury.
7.2.3.      Sedition. Whoever uses fraud, harassment, physical or sexual violence or threats thereof to attempt to influence any election or any other decision made under the Organic Law of Talossa (outside of an active case in any Cort), or to remove or replace officials duly empowered by that Organic Law, is guilty of the felony of sedition.
7.2.4.      Contempt of court. Contempt of court is a serious misdemeanour consisting of intentional:
7.2.4.1.            Misconduct in the presence of the court which interferes with a court proceeding or with the administration of justice, or which impairs the respect due the court;
7.2.4.2.            Disobedience, resistance or obstruction of the authority, process or order of a court;
7.2.4.3.            Refusal as a witness to appear, be sworn or answer a question; or
7.2.4.4.            Refusal to produce a record, document or other object.
7.2.5.      Perjury. Whoever under oath or affirmation orally makes a false material statement which the person does not believe to be true, in any matter, cause, action or proceeding, before the Ziu, any committee of the Ziu, or court of law, is guilty of the serious misdemeanour of perjury.
7.2.6.      Crimes against state property.
7.2.6.1.             Whoever steals or diverts to their own use without authorization the monetary or physical property of the Kingdom of Talossa is guilty of a felony if the monetary value of such theft is 100 louis or above, and a serious misdemeanour otherwise.
7.2.6.2.            Whoever improperly uses the intellectual property of the Kingdom of Talossa is guilty of a serious misdemeanour if with the intention of misrepresenting the Kingdom or improperly claiming the authority of the Kingdom, and a misdemeanour otherwise.
7.2.6.3.            Whoever improperly accesses any computer or information system belonging to the Kingdom of Talossa is guilty of a serious misdemeanour if with the intention of committing any other crime, and of a misdemeanour otherwise.
7.2.6.4.            Whoever makes a counterfeit of any official document or item pertaining to the Kingdom of Talossa and uses it to gain a benefit to which they were not otherwise entitled is guilty of a serious misdemeanour.
7.2.7.      Solicitation. Whoever induces or attempts to induce any other Talossan to break the Law of Talossa is guilty of the same class of offence as that which they sought to induce.
7.2.8.      Conspiracy. Whoever agrees with any other Talossan to break the Law of Talossa is guilty of the same class of offence as that which they agreed to commit.
7.2.9.      Bribery. The felony of bribery is committed by:
7.2.9.1.            Anyone who offers any officer of the Kingdom or witness in a Court case anything of value in return for the performance of their official duties or to influence their testimony.
7.2.9.2.            Any officer of the Kingdom or witness in a Court case who accepts a bribe (as above) without revealing it as soon as may be practical to the proper authorities.
7.2.10.  Bringing Talossa into disrepute. Any Talossan citizen who has brought Talossa into disrepute, through being convicted by a credible foreign court which is deemed to abide by Talossan values, of a crime established at trial to have involved fraud, harassment, bribery, physical or sexual violence or threats thereof, commits:
7.2.10.1.        A felony if sentenced to penal servitude of more than 2 years.
7.2.10.2.        A serious misdemeanour otherwise.
7.3.   Crimes against the person
7.3.1.      Whoever commits physical or sexual violence or threats thereof against any citizen or "judicial person" under Talossan law is guilty of a felony.
7.3.2.      Whoever commits fraud or harassment against any citizen or "judicial person" under Talossan law is guilty of a serious misdemeanour. Whoever commits threats of the above is guilty of a misdemeanour.
7.3.3.      Theft and invasion of privacy.
7.3.3.1.            Whoever commits theft or misappropriation of physical or monetary property valued at 100 louis or more, or improperly publishes a Talossan citizen's private information, is guilty of a felony.
7.3.3.2.            Whoever commits theft or misappropriation of physical or monetary property valued at less than 100 louis, or of any intellectual property, or improperly accesses a Talossan citizen's private information without publication, is guilty of a serious misdemeanour.
7.3.4.      Defamation. Whoever publicly defames the reputation of a Talossan individual in such a way as to bring them into hatred, ridicule and contempt is guilty of a serious misdemeanour.
7.3.4.1.            No statement shall be considered to be defamation if it is justified by being true, or by being fair comment in the absence of malicious intent.
7.3.5.      Whoever deprives an individual of the free exercise of their rights under the Organic Law in a way not otherwise mentioned in law commits a serious misdemeanour.
8.      Public Defender: No Talossan shall be convicted of any crime under this Lexhatx unless they have had the opportunity of defending themselves in Court. The Ministry of Justice shall appoint a Public Defender who is a member of the Talossan Bar at the request of any defendant, or if the defendant is for any other reason unable to defend themselves in Court.

You would have to also replace throughout the rest of El Lexh: "Class A misdemeanour" -> "serious misdemeanour"; "Class C misdemeanour" -> regular misdemeanour; "Class I felony" -> felony.

Quote from: Marcel Eðo Pairescu Tafial on June 09, 2021, 07:25:14 PM
I believe in the Wisconsin code class A is the most severe class, class C is the lowest class for misdemeanours

Okay, that seems to be correct, I was misreading El Lexh. My point stands with the categories flipped. In my proposal, the maximum punishment for "serious" is civil disability, and the maximum for "regular" is a fine. I prefer having as few classes as possible, in fact only "felony" and "misdemeanour" if we could.

I can't hurry up what those guys are doing (in a discussion not involving me because it all happens on chat while I'm asleep), but why don't you look at my most recent proposal in the meantime.

My solution to "felony/misdemeanour" would be to take the existing definitions of A.5 and say: "a felony is punishable by anything on this list. A serious misdemeanour is punishable by civil disability on down. A regular misdemeanour is punishable by fines on down." And delete the bit about imprisonment.

Elsewhere in El Lexh (excluding the bits that are meant to be replaced by above), we would change "class A" to "serious" and "class C" to "regular" (edited), and just delete "class I". Or we could roll the two categories of misdemeanour into each other, I don't mind.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more I think we can boil it down into:

1. Crimes against the Kingdom of Talossa:

- knowingly endanger the existence of the Kingdom of Talossa with the aid of non-Talossans ("treason");
- using fraud, harassment, bribery, physical or sexual violence or threats thereof to attempt to influence any election or any decision under the Organic Law of Talossa, or to remove or replace officials duly empowered by that Organic Law (inc. "sedition" and "perverting the course of justice");
- accepting anything of value (a "bribe") to do the above;
- perjury (the Wisconsin def seems to work fine);
- theft or conversion of State property, including intellectual property ("embezzlement"), including using a counterfeit of any official document to gain something of value;
- bringing Talossa into disrepute by being convicted by a credible foreign jurisdiction of a crime established at trial to have involved fraud, harassment, bribery, physical or sexual violence or threats thereof (a felony if sentenced more than 1 year in jail); *** we can take this out and debate it as a separate bill if it's still a problem
- inducing or attempting to induce any other Talossan to break the Law of Talossa (solicitation/conspiracy).

2. Crimes against other Talossans:

- fraud, harassment, physical or sexual violence or threats thereof against any citizen or "judicial person" under Talossan law;
- theft or conversion of individual property including intellectual property, private information and reputation (i.e. defamation);
- otherwise depriving an individual of the free exercise of their rights under the Organic Law

I honestly don't think we need any special laws about using computers to do any of the above. However, we might need to more precisely define the terms above, especially "harassment" and "violence".

As to existing crimes, El Lex A.16 would come under "fraud ... to influence an (immigration) decision"; A.20 and A.22 would be theft/conversion of State property. Personally I would prefer to delete A.9 altogether as a remnant of KR1's xenophobia, but that might come under "fraud" as well.

What do others think?

Firstly, it's not a FreeDems initiative, it's cross-party. I suppose I can reveal that one of the people involved is the LCC leader so he can perhaps give an update on where they're at. I've opened the other "Talossan Criminal Code" thread so people can contribute to that as and when they're ready.

Funny story, someone in the coalition negotiations wanted to run a Talossan lottery. I had to inform them that all lotteries are prohibited under Wisconsin code. It's again not so much that we can't look up what's in that law with a little bit of Google savvy, it's that we would have no reason to suspect that half the stuff in there is illegal until some legal beagle goes on a fishing trip.  "Mystery crimes", indeed.

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on June 07, 2021, 11:09:03 PM

§939.30 "Solicitation." (to commit a crime).

§939.31 "Conspiracy"

§946.10 "Bribery of public officers and employees."

§946.61 "Bribery of witnesses"

Ha ha ha ha, I just realised all these were in People v. La Mhà, a case which a certain now-Baron considered an outrage against justice at the time :D

I think it's important that technically it wouldn't be right to try someone again in Talossa for a crime they'd already been convicted of in another jurisdiction. The crime would still be something like "bringing Talossa into disrepute by involvement in an infamous crime", only you'd want a prescriptive list of infamous crimes.

But yeah, the distinction would have to be clear between:
1. crimes which the Talossan justice system can deal with.
2. infamous crimes which only a macro-justice system can deal with, but a credible conviction for which will incur the subordinate crime of "bringing Talossa into disrepute"

It gives me great pleasure to announce that the Praisidïeu of Fiova have elected @C. Carlüs Xheraltescù as Capitán (chair of the Praisidïeu, ceremonial leader of Fiova). ¡Qe la moart vient ischpiramint à sieux enemící!