Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 05:49:26 PM

Quote from: Miestră Schivă, UrN on Yesterday at 04:23:46 PM

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 10:48:00 AMMaybe the solution is just to do a separate bill?  That would be easiest, and I think trust would extend that far at this point.  If they were viewed as a joint package, I'd support that (not that I have a vote, but I am pretty noisy).

Can we do a separate bill as a joint package, i.e. the two go up or go down together? I would be worried that one would get vetoed but the other passed.

I really really really doubt you need to worry about a veto. And yes the provisions can be easily written so that they are contingent on each other. That is a good solution. That wouldn't go in the text, but in the therefore clauses. I can do it tonight if you'd like.

Yeah good, I liked the wording in my Abdication Bill. If there really is no chance of a veto, this is the dignified way out.

Quote from: Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB on Yesterday at 04:35:04 PMAzul leaders of Fiova,

The Chancery is preparing the 60th Cosa election and needs to confirm details regarding your upcoming Senate election. The Chancery has details that the election for senator is run by the Chancery, is this correct or should the province conduct the election?

Regards
Sir Txec dal Nordselvâ
Secretary of State

Please run our Senäts election for us Mr SoS kthx.

miestra la capitan

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 10:48:00 AMMaybe the solution is just to do a separate bill?  That would be easiest, and I think trust would extend that far at this point.  If they were viewed as a joint package, I'd support that (not that I have a vote, but I am pretty noisy).

Can we do a separate bill as a joint package, i.e. the two go up or go down together? I would be worried that one would get vetoed but the other passed.

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on Yesterday at 10:51:07 AM

Quote from: Sir Lüc on Yesterday at 06:10:00 AMI must note that this bill is substantially different from the one first presented when this Hopper thread was created; and its earliest similar version was posted on the 17th of April, meaning that if that's taken to be the time the current proposal was first Hoppered, the bill will only be ready for CRL consideration in three days's time.

It shouldn't be any issue clearing it in time for the next Clark, so I'm just trying to avoid setting a bad precedent.

Legally speaking, we could just affirm this right now out of committee and then any changes we want could still be made afterwards, but I agree that this would be a bad precedent and we should not do it.  As a general rule, (if we are going to have a CRL) then a bill should not go to a vote without CRL approval, and it should get re-approved if it is substantially revised after the CRL process.  It's not a legal necessity but it's good practice and something the Ziu can enforce on itself.

Yeah, I understand where Lüc's coming from, but how are you going to measure "earliest similar version"? That's pretty subjective.  IMHO the ten days should be the period of discussion of the proposal as a concept. Actual textual continuity should not be required.

I also understand where AD's coming from whereby you could totally replace a bill's text after CRL but before Clarking. But to require the CRL's say to be final would be giving the CRL too much power. A more difficult question. The CRL should be an advisory body that needs to have its say but should be able to be ignored (by a staggering coincidence that's my idea of the monarchy as well).

My take on the "decree" is that it's a regrettable kludge necessitated by the fact that the King will neither abdicate gracefully nor indicate otherwise so we could proceed to "legislative decapitation". I would agree with AD that there is no need to be rude but we've got to make sure it "sticks" (and no need to bar him from a possible comeback although it's hard to imagine a situation where that could happen).

My idea as previously was to just draw up a Decree of Abdication that would take effect automatically if not signed, like any other law, but I was worried whether an ordinary Act of the Ziu (as opposed to an OrgLaw amendment) would do the job.

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on April 22, 2024, 07:15:21 PMI don't want to jinx it but if this issue is settled in an enduring fashion AND it is through the cooperation of former political adversaries then this is a great moment for Talossa.

Make no mistake, AD and I will probably be political adversaries to the end of time lol. :D But the co-operation of current political adversaries on a major project of constitutional reform is something to be treasured, and something I've wanted for a long time. It may well have the impact of causing a whole realignment in Talossan politics.

The new Free Democrats seat assignment is as follows:
@Miestră Schivă: 23
@Antaglha Xhenerös Somelieir: 23
@Sir Lüc : 23
@Bentxamì Puntmasleu: 16

Attention CRL: @Baron Alexandreu Davinescu , @Ian Plätschisch , @Sir Lüc . This bill is now ready for your perusal, as sponsored by myself and @Breneir Tzaracomprada .

Quote from: Baron Alexandreu Davinescu on April 22, 2024, 08:36:13 AMHere is a version with your changes, Miestra, but incorporated in the traditional style.  The only thing I removed was this: "These proposed rules and procedures may be set by law or drawn up at the Secretary of State's discretion."

It is important that we not let the legislature meddle in this, inasmuch as we are able.  It should be a process set aside, as much as possible.  I do think it'd be a good idea to immediately draw up some suggested rules and procedures, though.  I already had in mind that basically the traditional rules of order could be followed -- familiar to anyone who's ever run a meeting or participated in a legislature that used them.  I'd be happy to take a crack at it next month, if that'd be amenable to Txec.

Beyond that, I would politely request that we really do need someone else to keep an eye on the voting.  If not the heads of the legislature, maybe the CpI?  We simply can't have a secret ballot for something so important that relies entirely on the absolute honesty of one person.  This is no reflection on anyone personally, but it's just good governance not to trust anyone so much.

The Succession Amendment and Decree

Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without becoming wholesale elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently read:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

Section 4
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 5
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 6
The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

QuoteSection 1
The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

Section 2
The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

Section 3
The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

Section 4
Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

Section 5
In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

Section 6
The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

Section 7
The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Cosa and majority approval of the Senäts, and by a majority of the people.

Section 8
Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State. This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities. The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration. The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate, which may differ from the Secretary of State's proposals, but may not contradict this Organic Law.

Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service, unless a different chair is elected by the convocation of succession by the expressed preference of an absolute majority of members, or by the expressed preference of a plurality of members within a period of seven days. The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King. All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered. This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

Section 9
For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

FURTHERMORE, the Ziu decrees, effective thirty days from the ratification of this amendment by the people, that the throne is vacant as though King John I had abdicated, and King John I is once more an ordinary citizen, with all of the rights and privileges of the same, released from his office and his duties with the nation's gratitude for his long service.  The Secretary of State is directed to begin immediate preparations for a convocation of succession.

This thread is now 10 days old and therefore the bill (as below) is now ready to be moved to the CRL as far as its proponent/main sponsor is concerned - that being me, because I started the thread, although someone else wrote a complete draft during the process. I understand that there might still be room for debate about the substantive provisions of the bill, and if anyone really wants that to happen, it can happen now. Alternatively, we can move this to the CRL now to check for non sequiturs, typos, and other drafting errors - but keep debating the substantives after it comes back. The big problem is I don't want us to still be butting heads on the substantives in 7 days or so or and in danger of missing the Clark.

BTW, there is a problem that, as far as I read El Lexhatx H.2.2., named sponsors of the bill must be MZs, which would exclude the actual author of most of this text. Am I reading that right or can Baron Davinescù's name go on it (if he would be happy to do so given that I've made crucial edits)?

===


Whereas, the monarchy is a central pillar of the country and its survival depends on its planned future as well as its activity, and

Whereas, this allows for democratic confirmations without leading to possibly politicised elections,

THEREFORE, the Ziu directs that Article II of the Organic Law, which currently reads:

QuoteSection 1
    The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

    Section 2
    The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

    Section 3
    The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

    Section 4
    In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

    Section 5
    The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

    Section 6
    The King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations.

shall be amended to read as follows:

QuoteSection 1
    The Kingdom of Talossa is a constitutional Monarchy with a King (or, if female, Queen) as its head of State.

    Section 2
    The King is the symbolic head of the nation. The nation democratically grants the King certain Royal Powers and duties as described in this Organic Law and in statute law. In addition, the King may grant titles of nobility and confer awards and decorations. The Ziu may establish procedures for when the King fails to perform a duty.

    Section 3
    The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.  Upon his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne, the new King shall be the Heir Presumptive, who shall be the duly-designated successor to the throne.  The new King shall likewise be succeeded in the same manner, and thus forever in perpetuity.

    Section 4
    Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.  However, the King may abdicate without renouncing his citizenship.

    Section 5
    In dire circumstances, when the King is judged by competent medical authority to be incapable of executing his duties, or if he is convicted by the Talossan Uppermost Cort of violation of this Organic Law, treason, bribery, nonfeasance endangering the safety, order or good government of the Kingdom, or other high crimes, the nation may remove the King from the Throne. The Cosa shall pronounce by a two-thirds vote, with the approval of the Senäts, that the King is to be removed, and this pronouncement shall immediately be transmitted to the people for their verdict in a referendum. If a two-thirds majority of the people concur, the King is removed.

    Section 6
    The King may, at whim, appoint, replace, or remove a Regent (or a Council of Regency, which is considered equivalent to a Regent), who shall administer the government in the name of the King, and exercise all powers Organically or legally vested in the King, except the power to appoint or replace a Regent. No person not a citizen of Talossa shall be competent to serve as Regent or member of a Council of Regency. The Ziu may by law remove or replace any appointed Regent, and if the Ziu removes a Regent appointed by the King, the King may not reappoint the same person Regent without the prior consent of the Ziu.

    Section 7
    The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive by special decree to the Ziu.  This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Cosa and majority approval of the Senäts, and by a majority of the people.

    Section 8

8.1 Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State. This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities.

8.2. The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration. These proposed rules and procedures may be set by law or drawn up at the Secretary of State's discretion. The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate, which may differ from the Secretary of State's proposals or from those suggested by law, but may not contradict this Organic Law.

8.3. Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service, unless a different chair is elected by the convocation of succession by the expressed preference of an absolute majority of members, or by the expressed preference of a plurality of members within a period of 7 days. 

8.4 The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King. All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered. 

8.5 This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

    Section 9
    For the duration of any time during which the throne is empty, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency.

FURTHERMORE, the Ziu decrees, effective thirty days from the ratification of this amendment by the people, that the throne is vacant as though King John I had abdicated, and King John I is once more an ordinary citizen, with all of the rights and privileges of the same, released from his office and his duties with the nation's gratitude for his long service.  The Secretary of State is directed to begin immediate preparations for a convocation of succession.

After discussion with the Free Democrats, I am moved to accept AD's text as a whole, but I'm still not 100% happy with section 8. The best critique I've heard is the large burden of work this puts on the SoS to organise the Convocation, both writing the rules and chairing. So I would like to introduce the following, as well as splitting the text up for easier reading. Note that I also do not see the point of appeal to the CpI (if we allow the Convocation to appoint its own chair) nor involving the chairs of the Houses of the Ziu in the process.

I would be happy to present the text as amended below to the CRL with my blessings. Bolded text is additions by me; underlined text is AD's work shifted around.

QuoteSection 8

8.1 Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, the Secretary of State shall announce a convocation of succession.  This announcement will include details of the convocation of succession, as described by the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration. This announcement shall further include a list of all those who have been citizens no fewer than seven full years prior to that date, and who are therefore eligible electors of the convocation.  The Secretary of State shall shall immediately thereafter notify all of these electors of the convocation and their responsibilities.

8.2. The Secretary of State shall also include in this announcement a set of proposed rules and procedures for the convocation of succession, for public debate and consideration. These proposed rules and procedures may be set by law or drawn up at the Secretary of State's discretion. The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate, which may differ from the Secretary of State's proposals or from those suggested by law, but may not contradict this Organic Law.

8.3. Fourteen days after this announcement, the convocation shall be deemed to have commenced.  It shall be chaired by the Secretary of State in a fair manner designed to foster open discussion and faithful service, If the Secretary of State is entirely unavailable or no longer serving in office, the chair shall be unless a different chair is elected by the convocation of succession by the expressed preference of an absolute majority of members, or by the expressed preference of a plurality of members within a period of 7 days.  The convocation of succession's first order of business shall be to approve, with or without modifications, the rules under which it will operate. A decision of the chair may be appealed to the Uppermost Cort. 

8.4 The convocation shall vote by secret ballot on a King. The Túischac'h dal Cosa and the Mençei dal Senäts shall observe voting and ensure its fidelity.  All electors' votes shall have equal weight, and whichever candidate first receives the support of two-thirds of the convocation shall be deemed the nominee of the convocation of succession.  No votes for ineligible candidates shall be considered. 

8.5 This choice shall be submitted to the people by referendum for their approval.  Should a majority of the people approve of the nominee, they shall be King of the Kingdom of Talossa.

I won't have a careful read/critique of AD's latest proposal until the morning my time to allow others to comment, but doesn't the text of the FURTHERMORE down the bottom say that if an Heir Apparent is selected John still gets to be King?

Oh, and I just noticed after agonizing over this wording for a while that AD's proposal removes the Ziu's role in ratifying the Conclave's choice. Was this deliberate?

Too complicated. Puts too much power into the SoS's hands and then has to introduce a bunch of checks and balances to take it back out again. But, on the other hand, taking the CpI out of the equation is good (though it should be done consistently). I like this procedure - phrased as an amendment to my own proposal because I wouldn't want to unpick AD's carefully-chosen language.

Quote1. The King of Talossa is King John I, until his demise, abdication, or removal from the throne.

2. The King may nominate an Heir Presumptive, to be approved by the Ziu and people by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law.

3. Should the King at any time renounce or lose his citizenship, that renunciation or loss shall be deemed to imply his abdication of the Throne.

4. Upon the demise, abdication, or removal from the Throne of the King, the Heir Presumptive shall become King.

Upon any vacancy on the Throne with no Heir Presumptive, a Convocation of Succession shall be called by the Secretary of State, who shall send a message to all eligible electors announcing the Convocation and providing instructions on how and when to register to participate. The Convocation shall commence fourteen days from the moment the Secretary of State sends the message to the electors.

Any Talossan shall who became a citizen no less than seven years before the date when the Secretary of State sends the message shall be eligible to be an elector in the Convocation, but only those who register with the Secretary of State before the Convocation commences shall be electors.

The Secretary of State shall establish or choose a forum for the Convocation to begin its business. The first business of the Convocation shall be to elect a Chair, by either open support of an absolute majority of Convocation members, or open support of a plurality of Convocation members at the end of 7 days.

An Heir Presumptive to the Throne of Talossa shall be chosen by the expressed support of 2/3 of the Convocation in a secret ballot, and submitted to the Ziu and people for ratification by the same procedure as for an ordinary amendment of this Organic Law

All discussions of the Convocation shall be open, and the votes of every elector shall have equal weight. The rules shall have a provision for vacating the Chair and electing a new one. All other rules of the Convocation not mentioned above shall be decided by the Convocation itself.

5. During any time that the throne is vacant and there is no Heir Presumptive, the Uppermost Cort shall be a Council of Regency in accordance with law.

I'm not sure yet what I think about the substantive issue (who calls/runs the Conclave), but I'm glad other people have pointed up problems. I have two problems at first sight, one of which is probably a drafting error, the other of which is an issue of principle:

1) s.7, "This decree shall take effect upon approval of a two-thirds supermajority of the Ziu". This neglects that we have a bicameral system - is this supposed to require a 2/3 majority in the Senäts? I much prefer my simple proposal to mirror OrgLaw amendments.

2) The second issue is that this amendment is supposed to be an overall amendment of the whole Section II of the current OrgLaw, including II.4 (the piece on a legal overthrow of the monarchy), which is reproduced as paragraph 5 of the Amendment. I have long contended that this section is useless as it's a higher bar to clear than simply amending the OrgLaw to overthrow the King. So I wouldn't support it being "reaffirmed".

There is now a third issue, which I didn't think about until Brenéir mentioned it. My proposal was to split up the Abdication and the Succession. But Brenéir has pointed out that it is possible that the King will approve of the Succession law but refuse to abdicate. Which would be a tricky, sneaky way of putting us in exactly the situation which the TNC proposed before the last election - and the FreeDems would rather die in a ditch than accept. This is made weirder by the fact that the King is clearly here now and refuses us to give any clear view of his intentions.

If he's going to be like that, maybe it's better not to Clark anything yet and wait for a clear direction on abdication? Or alternative to write a term limit to the reign of King John into the Succession amendment?