Symbols of the Ziu

Started by Baron Alexandreu Davinescu, July 05, 2022, 01:50:06 PM

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Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

The official symbols and flags for the Cosa and the Senats were chosen in the seventeenth and twentieth Cosas, respectively.  Here they are, below:

Cosa

   

Senats

   

As you can see, they have a pretty good design.  But there's an issue: they're stolen!  Not just the design, but the specific image is stolen from the official UK parliamentary logo!



I think this is sort of a problem when it comes to legal reasons -- but it's definitely pretty embarrassing, even if it's legal!  We need our own symbolism, or at least our own visuals for it.  This isn't something we can make happen, but we can formally advise the Ziu about it and make a recommendation.

Any thoughts from the rest of the Coletx?  Agreement, disagreement?

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC MC EiP

Fully agree. Talossan symbols should be Talossan in nature.

The question, then, is what do we suggest replacing it with?
The Long Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Specialist, Els Zuávs da l'Altahál Rexhitál
Cäps Naziunal, Parti da Reformaziun

Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat

I also agree. As far as replacing it, maybe  going back to our Berber heritage, just like America looked back to the Romans for their aesthetic? I'll have to do some more research. Perhaps a symbol from the tifinagh. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh

-OAF
The Fulbright Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Member, Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy & Whisky Society
Membreu dal Urderi dal Provinçù Soveran da Maricopa

Sir Txec dal Nordselvă, UrB

I didn't realize the images were plagiarized, but it does make sense in some ways. However, I also agree that we need our own symbols, designed by our own Coletx. A few of us in the Coletx are also either members of the Ziu or, like myself, allowed to propose legislation. We could craft something that everyone can agree on and put it in the hopper. A design can come after that.

-REH
Sir Txec Róibeard dal Nordselvă, UrB, GST, O.SPM, SMM
Secretár d'Estat
Guaír del Sabor Talossan
The Squirrel Viceroy of Arms, The Rouge Elephant Herald, RTCoA
Cunstaval da Vuode
Justice Emeritus of the Uppermost Cort
Former Seneschal

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

Quote from: Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat on July 06, 2022, 07:20:16 AM
I also agree. As far as replacing it, maybe  going back to our Berber heritage, just like America looked back to the Romans for their aesthetic? I'll have to do some more research. Perhaps a symbol from the tifinagh. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh

-OAF
I like this general idea, but I'm wary of cultural appropriation, where we just take the ideas and history of another group and adopt them as our own with new meanings.  A lot of that happened early on in Talossan history, and much of our culture is based on King Robert's syncretic appropriations, but I think we should be careful about indulging in the practice anew.  So let's be cautious!

I'd really prefer to go to our own history, but unfortunately there's a reason we've abandoned nearly all early Talossan iconography: most of it was gross and fascist, born from the edginess of teenage boys in the eighties.

This might be an opportunity to just invent something new, also!

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

#5
I had one idea to start with -- one of our oldest traditions is the Clark process, which began in Sep 1987.  It's named for Clark Graphics, the print shop which opened in 1985, since that's where the copies used to be made.  Until 2003, they had a blue and white color scheme throughout.  I contacted them to check.  I'd suggest those colors might be a good place to start.

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Carlüs Éovart Vilaçafat

#6
I had no idea! That's a very interesting piece of Talossan culture and history. Argent and azure definitely go together.

I did a quick search of parliamentary symbols and found some interesting motifs that might get the creative juices flowing.

This one is pretty on the nose as a government building:
http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/icons8/ios7/512/City-Parliament-icon.png

This one I thought was unique with its concentric circles, and it stands in stark contrast to the boxy portcullis:


-OAF
The Fulbright Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Member, Talossan Science Fiction, Fantasy & Whisky Society
Membreu dal Urderi dal Provinçù Soveran da Maricopa

Béneditsch Ardpresteir

The Portcullis has been used in various CoAs till date.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portcullis_in_heraldry

House of Commons, has it over Vert, whilst House of Lords has it over Rouge. Combined, they have it over the Talossan Flag.

Food for thought... should we, therefore, change our National Colours too?
Béneditsch Ardpresteir, Esq., O.SPM, PMPA
Squirrel King of Arms, Royal Talossan College of Arms; The Noir Eagle Herald
Member, Royal Talossan Bar; Vice Admiral, Royal Talossan Navy; Owner-Schneiderian Steels

Formerly:
Justice of the Uppermost Cort; Attorney General; Deputy Immigration Minister; Senator; Member of the Cosa; Undersecretary of State; Premier & Provincial Secretary, Maricopa; Chancellor of the O.SPM; Dean, RTCoA; Jolly Good Fellow

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

Quote from: Béneditsch Ardpresteir on July 08, 2022, 10:13:16 AM
The Portcullis has been used in various CoAs till date.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portcullis_in_heraldry

House of Commons, has it over Vert, whilst House of Lords has it over Rouge. Combined, they have it over the Talossan Flag.

Food for thought... should we, therefore, change our National Colours too?

As far as I can tell, the crowned portcullis is a pretty specific British piece of imagery. The page you link has it used several times, and all of them seem to be in connection to the British Parliament.

I'm not arguing that the portcullis generally should be a restricted charge. But this specific piece of symbolism was very clearly stolen from the British Parliament to represent our own legislature, right down to the actual image itself being appropriated. The fact that it was stolen a long time ago now doesn't change the fact that it's embarrassing and unbecoming to our country. I mean, it's a very iconic image that's 200 years old... it's silly to steal it!

It doesn't actually even symbolize anything for us. There's never been any kind of portcullis of any importance in our country, whereas in the UK it represent the refurbished palace at Westminster after its 16th century rebuilding. We should have symbols that are meaningful to our country.

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Breneir Tzaracomprada

I wonder if a design using an artistic outline of our parliament building might be suitable.


Distain, MC
Fighting the good fight

Bråneu Excelsio

Quote from: Breneir Tzaracomprada on July 11, 2022, 08:03:52 AM
I wonder if a design using an artistic outline of our parliament building might be suitable.

Sounds like the best possible outcome imho.
Fiován.

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

That would be Merrill Hall for the Cosa: https://goo.gl/maps/wmq7TMHLMT5ZZHSj9

and Greene Hall for the Senate: https://goo.gl/maps/8JciaoptfGZUZ3X78

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Baron Alexandreu Davinescu

One thing that jumps out at me about Merrrill is that it's not symmetrical.  There are three dormers on the right side, and only two on the left.  And Greene is an adjacent building that's attached to Merrill and doesn't seem to have a front facade.  So they're not impossible to work with, but we'll need to be creative.

-NRH
Alexandreu Davinescu, Baron Davinescu del Vilatx Freiric del Vilatx Freiric es Guaír del Sabor Talossan


Bitter struggles deform their participants in subtle, complicated ways. ― Zadie Smith
Revolution is an art that I pursue rather than a goal I expect to achieve. ― Robert Heinlein

Mic’haglh Autófil, SMC MC EiP

I'm wondering if it may be possible to utilize some other building from the Milwaukee skyline. Preferably something from Talossan territory; the Allen-Bradley Clock Tower is a longtime MKE landmark, but is south of the river.

A few that could qualify:

Milwaukee City Hall -- it may not be the seat of our government, but it's the seat of a government (and is vaguely Big-Ben-esque, alluding to the current usage of the Parliamentary portcullis)

North Point Water Tower -- a historic landmark that happens to straddle the boundary between Vuode and Maritiimi-Maxhestic, locally important to the extent that it is mentioned in the Lex clause detailing the boundaries of Dun Cestour Canton.

Merrill and Greene Halls are the obvious choices, but given the oddity of their design I wanted to give us some alternatives.

- TLF
The Long Fellow, Royal Talossan College of Arms
Specialist, Els Zuávs da l'Altahál Rexhitál
Cäps Naziunal, Parti da Reformaziun

Breneir Tzaracomprada

Quote from: Mic'haglh Autófil, MoFA on July 12, 2022, 09:42:59 AM
I'm wondering if it may be possible to utilize some other building from the Milwaukee skyline. Preferably something from Talossan territory; the Allen-Bradley Clock Tower is a longtime MKE landmark, but is south of the river.

A few that could qualify:

Milwaukee City Hall -- it may not be the seat of our government, but it's the seat of a government (and is vaguely Big-Ben-esque, alluding to the current usage of the Parliamentary portcullis)

North Point Water Tower -- a historic landmark that happens to straddle the boundary between Vuode and Maritiimi-Maxhestic, locally important to the extent that it is mentioned in the Lex clause detailing the boundaries of Dun Cestour Canton.

Merrill and Greene Halls are the obvious choices, but given the oddity of their design I wanted to give us some alternatives.

- TLF

This is just me but I am interested in seeing some proposals for Merrill and Greene Halls. Their design oddity seems rather fitting for Talossan character to be honest. And they are our legislative sites by tradition.


Distain, MC
Fighting the good fight